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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Hawley
    Great stuff Don and thanks. Thanks to PE too for the additional explanation.

    Since I have never done any densitomer testing, I have two questions:

    (1) what does the numerical spread in the values mean? Is it a large difference between papers or a small difference. Just at face value, it looks like a very small difference.

    (2) Are the differences between the papers detectable to the eye? Understand this is more subjective, but can the differences really be seen and how apparent are they?

    I just recently ran a comparison between Kentmere Bromide (grades 2 and 3) and Azo. No densitomer tests, but to my eyeball, the richness and depth of the deep blacks were indistinguishable.
    Alex,

    In many cases, the visual differences are very slight. In fact one would need to have the samples immediately adjacent and even then they may not be apparent as your experience indicates.

  2. #12
    Alex Hawley's Avatar
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    Thanks Don. To me, your testing shows that the dmax capability of these well-respected papers is nearly the same. In the practical sense, they are the same. There is also a good range of emulsion types here, different manufacturers, plus graded and variable contrast. Kind of debunks those "my paper's black is better than your paper's black" arguments that spring up from time to time.
    Semper Fi & God Bless America
    My Photography Blog

  3. #13
    mikepry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller
    I am not saying anything other then that these are the dmax that my tests indicated.
    Now Don, you're starting to sound like a politician!
    "EVERY film and paper is good .......... for something"
    Phil Davis

  4. #14
    MurrayMinchin's Avatar
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    It's not the depth of the black that matters, but the relationship of print values adjacent to each other.

    Short sermon eh?

    Murray
    _________________________________________
    Note to self: Turn your negatives into positives.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Hawley
    Great stuff Don and thanks. Thanks to PE too for the additional explanation.

    Since I have never done any densitomer testing, I have two questions:

    (1) what does the numerical spread in the values mean? Is it a large difference between papers or a small difference. Just at face value, it looks like a very small difference.

    (2) Are the differences between the papers detectable to the eye? Understand this is more subjective, but can the differences really be seen and how apparent are they?

    I just recently ran a comparison between Kentmere Bromide (grades 2 and 3) and Azo. No densitomer tests, but to my eyeball, the richness and depth of the deep blacks were indistinguishable.
    I have seen spreads like this in the same paper with different levels of gloss due to different polish on the ferrotyping plate. I have seen the same coating with different dmax based on the overcoat and I have also seen dmax vary if you make a print, dry it, measure it, rewet, redry, remeasure and etc. I've seen dmax drop with this procedure from the same sheet of paper. I've also seen it go up with this rewet, redry procedure. It depends on the paper hardness and swell, I'm told.

    Here is another test. Make 2 identical prints and place one on top of the other offset left, then repeat offset right and evaluate the dmax and dmin visually, then flip papers and put the bottom on top with the former top paper on the bottom. Do the offset evaluation of dmax and dmin. You will often get a big surprise from the subjective evaluation of how two otherwise identical prints differ just by position (top / bottom and left / right).

    This latter effect is due to left and right eye differences and the fact that the paper on the bottom has no additional white backing and therefore 'looks' different to the observer.

    These differences can be virtually eliminated by using a MacBeth viewing cabinet with standard light source, and measurments can be done with a spot photometer at about 3 ft distance.

    PE

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by JHannon
    Would the dmax change very much when toning in selenium?
    On a test of Ilford MG IV FB Glossy (air dried) paper last year, I found the Dmax went from a Visual density of 2.05 untoned to 2.20 with Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner 1:15 in about 4 minutes. Additional time up to 20 minutes added no extra density.

    The color balance went from untoned R=2.04/G=2.15/B=2.08 to R=2.21/G=2.28/B=2.20. Note the difference B to G is about 0.08 in each, while the difference from R to G went from 0.11 in the untoned print to only 0.07 in the toned one. This made the print appear a little less green, and made the print appear more neutral.

    Kirk - www.keyesphoto.com

  7. #17
    James Bleifus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller

    Oriental (Grade 2) 2.10

    Azo (Grade 2 and 3) 2.07 and 2.09
    Wow, Oriental grade 2 has deeper blacks than Azo grade 3. Thanks for the info Donald.

    Cheers, James

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by James M. Bleifus
    Wow, Oriental grade 2 has deeper blacks than Azo grade 3.
    Yeah - deeper by 1/30th of a stop...

  9. #19
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    [QUOTE=Alex Hawley

    I just recently ran a comparison between Kentmere Bromide (grades 2 and 3) and Azo. No densitomer tests, but to my eyeball, the richness and depth of the deep blacks were indistinguishable.[/QUOTE]

    Alex,

    What developer did you use on the Kentmere Bromide? I would like to try that.

    Thanks,

    John Powers

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepry
    Don,
    Can we safely apply the moniker "Azo Schmazo" then?
    It is my understanding that it is the entire curve of AZO from shoulder to toe that gives it its look, and that amidol is an important part of reaching that curve.

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