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  1. #1

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    Cross-processing paper

    I'm just idly curious: What happens if you cross-process paper -- say, RA-4 color paper in B&W chemistry? Is the image likely to be useable? Does it have any interesting characteristics, like better reproduction of tones in color negatives (similar to what you'd get with Panalure)? Would this tend to ruin the chemistry for subsequent use with regular B&W paper, if done in trays? I'm guessing that the blix would ruin any attempt to do B&W paper in RA-4 chemistry, so that's not likely to be very interesting. What about RA-4 paper in Cibachrome or R-3000 chemistry or vice-versa? (FWIW, I've already tried printing slides on RA-4 paper and chemistry, with interesting color-reversed results.)

  2. #2
    Donald Qualls's Avatar
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    RA-4 paper is generally panchromatic, so you *should* get a B&W silver image -- however, the relative sensitivities of the various color layers may not be a good match for what you'd expect, and there will likely be some color cast or other problems with the resulting print.

    You're correct, B&W materials in any current color process will come out with no image at all; there's no dye to replace the silver removed by the bleach, because they don't have couplers to hold the dyes presented by color developers.

    Cibachrome chemistry is essentially a B&W print developer followed by a dye-destruction bleach -- where the bleach removes developed silver, it also destroys the dye in that layer, then the fixer removes the remaining halide leaving a three layer direct dye positive. RA-4 paper is completely incompatible with this process; you'll most likely get blank paper with whatever color cast you'd get by putting it in common B&W fixer. Cibachrome paper in RA-4 chemistry will give solid black -- nothing in the chemistry will destroy the Cibachrome dyes, so you'll wind up with three full density dye layers over the whole print.

    You *can* reverse RA-4 paper, BTW -- expose it to your slide, process in B&W developer, stop, wash, exposed to light to fully fog, then put it through the regular RA-4 process. You'll get some odd colors, but might be able to find a filter pack that works. You *might* be able to get a negative print from Cibachrome, but you'd have to develop, bleach in something like a B&W reversal bleach (must dissolve the silver without either dissolving the unexposed halide or rehalogenating the developed silver), then fog and process normally.
    Photography has always fascinated me -- as a child, simply for the magic of capturing an image onto glossy paper with a little box, but as an adult because of the unique juxtaposition of science and art -- the physics of optics, the mechanics of the camera, the chemistry of film and developer, alongside the art in seeing, composing, exposing, processing and printing.

  3. #3

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    I tried it a while back in an attempt to make black and white prints from color negatives. The results were very poor. Even with vigorous processing the paper does not produce decent blacks.

  4. #4
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    there is special paper for printing color neg.s in b/w it
    's sensitivity is made to match (more) the spectral sensitivity of the film I think. Although at home I have a box I've never used it.. I'd have to see what it is called ..

  5. #5
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    there is special paper for printing color neg.s in b/w it
    's sensitivity is made to match (more) the spectral sensitivity of the film I think. Although at home I have a box I've never used it.. I'd have to see what it is called ..
    I believe that you're referring to Kodak's Panalure paper. I'm pretty sure that it's been discontinued, unfortunately ...

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    ouyang's Avatar
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    yes, that's it.. it does look old. I got it with my enlarger..

  7. #7
    Donald Qualls's Avatar
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    *All* of Kodak's B&W papers, whether silver gelatin or dye-image (RA-4), are either discontinued or just now discontinuing.

    Oriental Seagull made a panchro paper for a while, but it's been gone for 2-3 years IIRC.

    I've heard Fuji makes a panchro silver gelatin paper, and a B&W RA-4 number as well, but unless you run a mini-lab, the RA-4 won't be much help (comes only on rolls, AFAIK) and I don't believe I've seen any indication they import any of their silver-image papers to the USA.

    Which leaves the annoying option of making an interpositive and internegative, or reversal inerpositive, on panchro B&W film, from which to print on B&W paper if you want B&W prints from color. Or take the negative to a mini-lab and get an almost-black and white print via digital process... :P
    Photography has always fascinated me -- as a child, simply for the magic of capturing an image onto glossy paper with a little box, but as an adult because of the unique juxtaposition of science and art -- the physics of optics, the mechanics of the camera, the chemistry of film and developer, alongside the art in seeing, composing, exposing, processing and printing.

  8. #8
    Schlapp's Avatar
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    If Cibachrome is essentially B&W with dyes, could you expose cibachrome and develop it as B&W in for example Dektol?

  9. #9
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    If you process Ilfochrome in B&W chemistry, you get a sheet of paper that is black with a faint image. Since all of the dyes are present, you get a black sheet result of all of those dyes and a vague image courtesy of the silver you developed.

    You need the rest of the Ilfochrome process to reveal a color image.

    PE

  10. #10
    Schlapp's Avatar
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    Good stuff and thanks. B&W is what I was after :-).
    So, if you underexpose/overexpose and develop in Dektol would the image be more dominant?? And does B&W fix work with this??

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