Ilford's Fiber Paper Washing Times

[dancqu]

I just downloaded "Processing B&W Paper" pdf from the
Ilford site and noticed a possible discrepancy. On page 3,
top left, it says to wash for 20 minutes.

But then further down the page under the "optimim pernance
sequence", it says to wash for 5 minutes.

Both times are mentioned after using their washaid.

Five minutes sounds awfully short.
So is 20 minutes the correct time?

Current PDFs, fixers, papers, the one you mention, offer
a few post fix wash routines. The most recent, the fixer
PDFs, suggest the 5-10-5 minute wash, hca, wash
routine what ever the paper's fix routine.

The routine you mention is the 5-10-20 minute wash,
hca, wash. Should be OK. In my mind the shorter 5-10-5
routine has one hovering over the tray/trays with no or
little time for other matters.

The "optimum permanance sequence" or something to
that effect is, in the latest PDFs, associated with and
only with a low maximum silver level of 0.5 grams
per liter working strength fix.

Used to be an Ilford " Archival Processing Sequence".
No longer. The sequence was a very short fix in film
strength fixer followed by the 5-10-5 wash, hca,
wash. That 5-10-5 routine persists and is still
one of Ilford's suggested wash routines.

Ilford no longer uses the word archival. But for
Optimal keep your silver levels low. For that and
great mileage from the chemistry they suggest
the two bath fix.

I manage an archival fix and great chemical mileage
using a single bath of very dilute one shot fixer. Works
well with my single tray processing method. A single
tray for processing is a big space saver. Dan

[catem]

Dan, with your method, how long do you fix for? And is the 'very dilute' fix 1:9 or greater?
Like you I tend to use a 'one-shot'- fix with one tray, and monitor silver levels. I have been hovering between wash times and dilutions though!
Thanks

[dancqu]

[QUOTES=Stargazer;419138]
"Dan, with your method, how long do you fix for?
And is the 'very dilute' fix 1:9 or greater?"

I just finished a long series of fixer tests using sodium
thiosulfate with and without bicarbonate and carbonate
as an alkaline additive. Can't be of much help where the
usual rapid ammonium thiosulfate fix is used.

But I was using A. Thio. up to recently. I think it went
bad. Something which does not happen to S. Thio. So I'm
back to S. Thio and mix fresh at processing time. Bicarbonate
in equal amount speeds washing. Fix time is 3 & 1/2 minutes;
that with a 1% S. Thio. concentration. Archival results
with one fix. Silver level is very low.

Three grams of each will do an 8x10. That's 150 8x10s
per pound S. Thio. anhydrous. Those amounts are based on
tests made with unexposed sheets and included some
small additional allowance. ST-1 and HT-2 test were
used and only NO stain results were acceptable.

The last A. Thio. used was at 1:24 and solution volume
250ml; one-shot, one 8x10. IIRC three minutes did it using
a some what special agitation technique of turning over
back to front and right to left.

"Like you I tend to use a 'one-shot'- fix with one tray,
and monitor silver levels. I have been hovering between
wash times and dilutions though!"

One session 'one-shot'. Monitoring is not needed with
my method. Also no stop is needed. The only thing I can
suggest if you wish to give the method a try is to buy some
silver nitrate and white vinegar for the HT-2 tests and
some sodium sulfide for the ST-1 tests. Dan

[catem]

Interesting, thank you.

btw that's the agitation technique for fixing that I was originally taught, (not continuous and along with some regular agitation) and I still use it, though with the Ilford one-minute fix method with rapid fix there doesn't seem enough time. I lengthen a little to take account of time out of the fix bath, and do just a couple of flip-overs.

As you say, testing is the only way, and as for permanence - possibly only time will tell.

[dancqu]

[QUOTES=Stargazer;419208]

"Interesting, thank you. btw that's the agitation
technique for fixing that I was originally taught,
(not continuous and along with some regular
agitation) and I still use it, ..."

Exactly. Not continuous. I watch the clock. At 1/2
minute intervals the print is pulled from back to front
then from right to left. The little very dilute fixer is
churned well. Twixt those churnings some tilting
and agitation of the tray is included.

"...though with the Ilford one-minute fix method with
rapid fix there doesn't seem enough time. I lengthen
a little to take account of time out of the fix bath,
and do just a couple of flip-overs."

A couple of flips is about it with a one minute fix. The
one minute fix followed by the 5-10-5 minute wash, hca,
wash sequence is a Quickest way to a completed print.
I've read it can save water. I'm not so sure. IIRC the
wash must be with running water and continuous
agitation. As for the HCA, hanging around that
for 10 minutes is not my cup of tea. But if
a FB print is needed ASP.

I've little space for processing. After considering rotory
and single tray processing I went with the tray. Use of
minimal solution volumes, similar to rotory, works well.

The very dilute one-shot fix took time. Went all the way,
one-tray one-shot. I may be the only person in the entire
world to have investigated and worked with very dilute fixer.
Much to read of very dilute developer. Nothing to read of
very dilute fixer. There is much of generations-gone-by
commercial methods a part of today's fine art silver
gelatine processing. Dan

[patrickjames]

I have always mixed perma-wash in with my rapid fix (Ilford) and was wondering if that is something that anyone else does. I know it gets rid of stains when toning for sure. Anyone have any educated opinions on this practice?

[thefizz]

Similar discussion here:

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/3...ng-toning.html

[dancqu]

I have always mixed perma-wash in with my rapid fix (Ilford)...
I know it gets rid of stains when toning for sure. Anyone have
any educated opinions on this practice?

An educated assessment: The Perma-Wash is likely a
little alkaline and neutralizes the fix acidity. Kodak
recommends that sodium metaborate, Kodalk, be
added to their hca before selenium toning. Dan

[Kirk Keyes]

An educated assessment: The Perma-Wash is likely a
little alkaline and neutralizes the fix acidity.

More like wild-ass guess? You should read the ingredient label on the bottle. There's a lot more going on than "neutralizes the fix acidity" in it.