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  1. #1
    thefizz's Avatar
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    Washing & Toning.

    Hi, I have four questions regarding archival washing & toning.

    My procedure after fixing is as follows:
    5m wash
    5m HCA
    60m wash*
    5m selenium tone 1:19 (I know this is not a full tone for archival purposes)
    5m wash
    5m HCA
    60m wash.

    *Do I need to do that first 60m wash before toning or am I over doing it?

    I read in Tim Rodman’sa book on toning that when HCA is used after fixing, then “moderate over-washing or slight under-washing is not important if toning for permanence is to be subsequently carried out”. How does this apply to a partly toned print?

    I have recently obtained the HT-2 Hypo Test Solution for testing washing efficiency. Should this be used after both of my 60m washes or only after the final wash.

    I understand that staining can occur if a print is not properly fixed or washed before toning in selenium. Would such staining appear immediately or over time?

    Thanks,
    Peter

  2. #2
    Saganich's Avatar
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    For my last batch I followed the following proceedure:

    After first fix:
    Rinse under flowing water with agitation in a tray then store in cold water untill final processing.

    2nd fixer, non-hardening. I use a plain Hypo Bath 3 minutes.

    Selenium mixed with either HCA, distilled, or purified water.
    Place prints into selenium directly from second fixer.

    Hypo Clearing 3 minutes
    Rinse in tray under running water for several minutes.
    Place into cold water untill ready for final wash.

    Wash all for one hour, or use soak and dump method depending on the time.

    The extra one hour wash in not necessary, to answer your question.

    Chris
    Chris Saganich
    http://www.imagebrooklyn.com

  3. #3
    Saganich's Avatar
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    The staining will appear the next day when you look at the dries prints, looks like bronz spots or streaks. Contamination control is important so it is good to use seperate tongs for removing the prints from the HCA. I suspect you don't want to get selenium on the prints after the HCA bath, but really I'm not too sure about the contamination issue.
    Chris Saganich
    http://www.imagebrooklyn.com

  4. #4
    blansky's Avatar
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    No you don't need the 60 minute wash.

    My procedure is:

    From fixer,

    3-5 minutes wash
    3-5 minute perma wash
    3-5 minute wash
    into toner for however long you want
    back to 3-5 minute wash
    3-5 minute perma wash
    45-1hour in archival washer.


    Michael
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  5. #5
    Monophoto's Avatar
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    ****Do I need to do that first 60m wash before toning or am I over doing it?

    I think you are greatly overdoing things.

    ****I read in Tim Rodman’sa book on toning that when HCA is used after fixing, then “moderate over-washing or slight under-washing is not important if toning for permanence is to be subsequently carried out”. How does this apply to a partly toned print?

    Actually, if you read Rudman's book completely, he states that toning for permance requires toning to completion. His logic is that in a partly toned print, the conversion from silver to silver selenite takes place only in the shadow and perhaps midtone areas, and therefore the toner provides incomplete archival protection in the midtone and highlight areas. (See page 159, first column, first and second paragraphs).

    ****I have recently obtained the HT-2 Hypo Test Solution for testing washing efficiency. Should this be used after both of my 60m washes or only after the final wash.

    I would view the test solution as a step that you would take to verify that a process is satisfactory. And once having made that determination, I would not do it again unless I changed the process.

    Also, I think two 60 minute washes is entirely too much washing. In fact, if you use hypoclear, you can reduce your final wash to 30 minutes, or better yet, a sequence of soaking baths. You are wasting a lot of water!

    ****I understand that staining can occur if a print is not properly fixed or washed before toning in selenium. Would such staining appear immediately or over time?

    In my (unhappy) experience, toning stains appear almost instantaneously. I have also found that that stains are most likely to occur if I go directly from the fixer to the toner (ie, following the Ansel Adams process). For that reason, I have standardized on the following sequence:
    fix
    rinse (hold)
    hypoclear
    tone
    hypoclear again
    wash

    When I follow that sequence, I don't get any stains.
    Louie

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by thefizz
    My procedure after fixing is as follows:
    5m wash
    5m HCA
    60m wash*
    5m selenium tone 1:19 (I know this is not a full tone for archival purposes)
    5m wash
    5m HCA
    60m wash.

    *Do I need to do that first 60m wash before toning or am I over doing it?
    No. A 5 min wash is enough.
    Also, the last 60 min wash can be shortened to 10-20 min.

    I read in Tim Rodman’sa book on toning that when HCA is used after fixing, then “moderate over-washing or slight under-washing is not important if toning for permanence is to be subsequently carried out”. How does this apply to a partly toned print?
    If permanence is important to you, you should use complete (deep) toning in KRST 1+9 or stronger solution. If not, the print should be further protected with Fujifilm Ag Guard. Alternatively, you might want to consider polysulfide toning.

    I have recently obtained the HT-2 Hypo Test Solution for testing washing efficiency. Should this be used after both of my 60m washes or only after the final wash.
    After the final wash only.
    Also, silver-nitrate test solution is a bit tricky to use correctly. You want to pick up a sample from wash water, and blot it. If the wash water is very cold, allow it to come to room temp. Then apply the test solution and follow the usual instruction.

    For first few times, include deliberately underwashed specimens and make sure they make dark stain rather quickly, to make sure the procedure is working.

    If you want numerical reading by densitometry method, read the original papers and also addition by Pope.

    I understand that staining can occur if a print is not properly fixed or washed before toning in selenium. Would such staining appear immediately or over time?
    There are multiple sources of staining. If the fixing is inadequate or removal of fixer is incomplete, you'll see stains very shortly in the toning bath. If the final wash is inadequate, you may see stain some time later.

  7. #7

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    http://www.worldoflithprinting.com There is not much I can add Peter, Ryuji and Louie have covered everything above.
    Perhaps just to add that you are certainly overwashing and whilst you might think that too much is always safer, you may wash out some/all of the optical brighteners in the paper (if present) and lose some of the 'glow' or luminosity in the prints appearance when dry.
    everything else has been covered admirably!
    Tim
    http://www.worldoflithprinting.com

  8. #8

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    Oops, sorry about the double link. Just tried the advanced mode and somehow got it in twice
    Tim

  9. #9
    RalphLambrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefizz
    My procedure after fixing is as follows:
    5m wash
    5m HCA
    60m wash*
    5m selenium tone 1:19 (I know this is not a full tone for archival purposes)
    5m wash
    5m HCA
    60m wash.

    *Do I need to do that first 60m wash before toning or am I over doing it?

    Thanks,
    Peter
    Peter

    You can skip the first 5min HCA and the first 60min wash. The 2nd HCA is fine (I do 10min) and the last wash is fine at 20 to 30 minutes.

    Full toning is better than half toning, but some toning is better than none. To me toning is a compromise between longevity and aesthetics (an 'ugly' print doesn't need to live forever). You get more longevity from sulphide toning or a selenium/sulphide combination, but then you need to add a 30min wash prior to toning again.

    Also important for longevity is a 2-bath fixing procedure. Other keys to longevity are:

    1. Get rid of the non-image silver (fix enough but not too much)
    2. Do at least some toning (to protect image silver)
    3. Get rid of almost all fixer through washing (all is not possible)
    4. Store the prints at reasonable temp/humidity levels
    5. Avoid severe temp/humidity fluctuations
    6. Avoid unnessecary exposure to light
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  10. #10
    thefizz's Avatar
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    Thank you all for your help, it is much appreciated.

    Peter

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