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  1. #11
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Jay;

    Yes, the long water washes were 'legendary' for the Agfa, Orwo and also the Gevaert products of the 40s, 50s and 60s. Soviet films, based on Orwo films, were also very similar. At EK, we examined the process and found that the thick film or paper structure was causing severe underdevelopment of the bottom layer, and the wash allowed that layer to catch up while slowing down the others.

    In addition, it diluted the remaining developer and induced edge effects and interimage effects somewhat like the orange mask in current color negative films.

    Very interesting process. Obsolete now in the face of new films with thin structures and more active couplers.

    PE

  2. #12
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    diethyl-p phenylene diamine sulphate sounds similar to the CD-* compounds used today; I believe that that one is CD-1; I recall reading it somewhere. I'm neither a chemistry or old film expert, though.

    PE, just out of curiosity, if you have the formulas for this handy, it'd be interesting to see them posted here...

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by htmlguru4242 View Post
    diethyl-p phenylene diamine sulphate sounds similar to the CD-* compounds used today; I believe that that one is CD-1; I recall reading it somewhere. I'm neither a chemistry or old film expert, though.

    PE, just out of curiosity, if you have the formulas for this handy, it'd be interesting to see them posted here...
    It is CD1 which is the most toxic (in the sense of causing skin rashes and other allergic reations - not in terms of the toxicity of say HCN (cyanide)) of all color developers and the one with the worst dye stability (IIRC).

    Yes, I have the formulas somewhere, but it will take a while to find them and arrange them for posting. I think that they should go in the formulas area as well and that is not operational.

    I'll try to fit it in next week or the week after.

    PE

  4. #14
    ZorkiKat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Jay;

    Yes, the long water washes were 'legendary' for the Agfa, Orwo and also the Gevaert products of the 40s, 50s and 60s. Soviet films, based on Orwo films, were also very similar. At EK, we examined the process and found that the thick film or paper structure was causing severe underdevelopment of the bottom layer, and the wash allowed that layer to catch up while slowing down the others.

    In addition, it diluted the remaining developer and induced edge effects and interimage effects somewhat like the orange mask in current color negative films.

    Very interesting process. Obsolete now in the face of new films with thin structures and more active couplers.

    PE

    Hi PE

    The ORWO Formulae mentioned something to the same effect. During the long washes, some "densities" were formed. I would assume that the the mask was among those densities quoted.

    Agfacolor CN17 had a bright yellow mask, unlike the old Kodak negatives I've seen. I've printed (both on RA-4 and through scanning) some old CN17 negatives of my mother's snapshots from the 1960s. Prints made at the time now show only a purple mush. I was quite surprised that the old negatives yielded excellent colour prints on modern RA-4 paper. Same could be said from the digitally produced positives. Hues and tones paled in comparison with current colour negatives, but still the colours were there.

    Jay
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  5. #15
    ZorkiKat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by htmlguru4242 View Post
    diethyl-p phenylene diamine sulphate sounds similar to the CD-* compounds used today; I believe that that one is CD-1; I recall reading it somewhere. I'm neither a chemistry or old film expert, though.

    PE, just out of curiosity, if you have the formulas for this handy, it'd be interesting to see them posted here...

    htmlguru,

    here's the colour developer formula from ORWO-FORMULAE for ORWOcolor NC.

    "ORWOCOLOR 15 Color developer" (to make 1 litre)

    A901 (water softening agent?)....3 g
    Hydroxilamine sulphate....1,2 g
    Diethyl-p-phenylene diamine sulphate....3 g
    Potassium Carbonate....75 g
    Sodium Sulphite....2 g
    Potassium Bromide....2,5 g
    Nitrobenzimidazol Nitrate...(add only if required for certain types of film)

    pH value 10,9 +/_ 0,1

    Jay
    FED ZORKI SURVIVAL SITE
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    "不管黑猫白猫能抓到老鼠就是好猫。" 邓小平
    It doesn't matter if a cat is black or white, so long as it catches mice.-邓小平

  6. #16
    htmlguru4242's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting hte formula

    That's a fairly simple developer ... I'm assuming the rest of the process is just a bleach-fix-stabilize-wash like more modern color processes?

  7. #17
    ZorkiKat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by htmlguru4242 View Post
    Thanks for posting hte formula

    That's a fairly simple developer ... I'm assuming the rest of the process is just a bleach-fix-stabilize-wash like more modern color processes?
    The rest of the steps is fairly simple. ORWO 5166 used a ferricyanide+bromide bleach, a neutral 20% hypo fix, and a formaldehyd stabliser.

    Jay
    FED ZORKI SURVIVAL SITE
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    "不管黑猫白猫能抓到老鼠就是好猫。" 邓小平
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  8. #18
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    There is exact information to the “old” AGFA/ORWO process here (a free Login for the Download with the Webmaster request):

    http://www.silberphotographie.de/INF..._VERFAHREN.pdf

    and

    http://www.silberphotographie.de/ind...n/Page1216.htm



    Ralph

  9. #19
    htmlguru4242's Avatar
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    How are the results from these films; does anyone have any examples or are there any online?

  10. #20
    ZorkiKat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by htmlguru4242 View Post
    How are the results from these films; does anyone have any examples or are there any online?
    I've one frame of ORWOchrom which came with an FSU duplicating device. The frame looks original, not a copy made by the device. Looks like a normal transparency, nothing odd about its colour rendering or such. It has that "golden afternoon" (can't think of a better description for that unique Agfacolor rendering) light look.

    About a couple of years ago, I also printed some old snapshots taken on 40+ year old Agfacolor CN17 negatives. The new prints also look quite OK, doesn't seem to be missing colours, hues just aren't as punchy as those of contemporary prints we're used to seeing now.

    Try to find the 1943 "Baron Munchhausen" (UFA) on DVD. It was shot in glorious Agfacolor. It was the Goebbels answer to Hollywood's Technicolor "Wizard of Oz". Though the DVD has been restored somewhat, the restorers made sure that the original Agfacolor palette's unique traits were preserved. They noted that Agfacolor was more pastel and not as garish as three-strip Technicolor. Quite true. The DVD has a special feature which includes cuts from other 1930s-1940s Agfacolor features. Some in their original, faded states which can still suggest how the originals were.

    Jay
    FED ZORKI SURVIVAL SITE
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    "不管黑猫白猫能抓到老鼠就是好猫。" 邓小平
    It doesn't matter if a cat is black or white, so long as it catches mice.-邓小平

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