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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by MurrayMinchin View Post
    Eegad...you've opened a big-old skanky can-o-worms now

    but stock solution Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner (KRST) smells so heinous it'll snap your head back,

    I took a whiff of the stock solution KRST when I was topping up my working solution today and although the ammonia smell is pretty strong, it wasn't too bad compared to the terrible rotten eggs odor I get from viradon or sepia toner. makes me want to just quit and tone in photoshop and save the stink!

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurrayMinchin View Post
    jstraw...giving advice on such little information (what paper, what dilution, etc, etc, etc.) the only thing I would suggest is going with a two bath fix.
    Thanks, don't worry about the times. I was asking for feedback for the workflow.

    When using a two bath fix, what is the idea behind that? Do you simply split total fixng time in half for each tray?
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jstraw View Post
    When using a two bath fix, what is the idea behind that? Do you simply split total fixng time in half for each tray?
    I dug out my old copy of The Compact Photo Lab Index, published by Morgan & Morgan. On page 336 of the 1979 edition, in the Kodak section under "Archival Processing", a portion of that article states;


    "Fixing Prints in a Single Bath: As successive sheets of paper are fixed in a bath of hypo, the quantity of silver in the solution builds up. When prints are fixed, a critical concentration of silver is reached after comparatively few sheets of paper have been fixed. The recommended number of 8 by 10-inch prints per gallon of solution (or the equivilant area in other sizes) is 100 for commercial processing. However, if prints with the minimum tendency to stain are required, the bath should be discarded after only thirty 8 by 10 sheets of paper per gallon have been processed. The above figures give only an approximate estimate of the condition of a fixing bath, because the amount of silver compounds added to the solution by a print depends on how much of the silver halide in the emulsion was developed to metallic silver. Obviously, less silver halide would be left in a very dark print than in a very light one.

    Two-Bath Fixing: If space permits, it is always preferable to use the two-bath fixing system in print processing. This method is much more efficient and effects a considerable economy in chemicals. The prints are fixed for 3 to 5 minutes in two successive baths. The major part of the silver halide is dissolved in the first bath, and the remainder is dissolved or rendered soluble in the second bath. To operate a two-bath fixing system, follow this procedure:
    1) Mix two fresh fixing baths and place them side by side.
    2) Fix the prints for 3 to 5 minutes in each bath.
    3) Discard the first bath when two hundred 8 by 10-inch prints per gallon of solution have been fixed.
    4) Substitute the second bath for the one you have just discarded; the second bath has now become the first.
    5) Mix a fresh bath and place it beside the first one.
    6) Repeate the above cycle four times.
    7) After 5 cycles, mix fresh chemicals in both baths.
    8) If five cycles are not used in one week, mix fresh solution in each bath at the beginning of the second week."



    Numbers 2 & 8 seem a bit weird to me. There's no way I'd put 200 8x10's through a gallon of fix, and they must be talking about trays in #8...but the rest makes total sense.

    With regular fix the time is split between the two fixers, but because I use a rapid fix I give the full time in each bath. At this time I'm using TF-3, which can fix about 20 8x10 prints per litre, or about 80 prints per gallon. I fix for a minute in each, and never come close to fixing as many prints as they say I can. TF-4 says it's good for 30 prints per litre. That's for fibre based papers by the way.

    Hope I didn't muddy the waters further!

    Murray
    _________________________________________
    Note to self: Turn your negatives into positives.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by jstraw View Post
    When using a two bath fix, what is the idea behind that?
    Do you simply split total fixng time in half for each tray?
    Second question first. Do NOT split fixing time. A print is
    to be entirely fixed in the first fix. The capacity of the first
    fix can be VERY high. Dissolved silver levels in the first fix can
    be very high. There in lies the reason for the second fix.

    Only that portion of the first fix which is carried by the
    print enters into the second fix. The great bulk of dissolved
    silver remains in the first fix. A second fix reduces considerably
    the levels of dissolved silver and residual silver in the emulsion
    and paper. The name of the game is, reduce dissolved silver
    to a very low level.

    BTW, The Compact Photo Lab Index quotation is speaking
    of the slower Sodium Thiosulfate fixer. Two hundred 8x10s
    is a lot of prints. The chemistry's capacity though is even
    greater than that with film or RC print procesing. With
    those two higher silver levels are OK. Dan

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancqu View Post
    Second question first. Do NOT split fixing time. A print is
    to be entirely fixed in the first fix. The capacity of the first
    fix can be VERY high. Dissolved silver levels in the first fix can
    be very high. There in lies the reason for the second fix.

    Only that portion of the first fix which is carried by the
    print enters into the second fix. The great bulk of dissolved
    silver remains in the first fix. A second fix reduces considerably
    the levels of dissolved silver and residual silver in the emulsion
    and paper. The name of the game is, reduce dissolved silver
    to a very low level.

    BTW, The Compact Photo Lab Index quotation is speaking
    of the slower Sodium Thiosulfate fixer. Two hundred 8x10s
    is a lot of prints. The chemistry's capacity though is even
    greater than that with film or RC print procesing. With
    those two higher silver levels are OK. Dan

    I use hypo check to monitor my fixer...you know, the stuff you drip in that stays clear if the silver content is low but turns milky when the fixer is exhausted? Are you saying that I can exceed that threshhold with a two bath method?
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  6. #36

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    Correction

    Quote Originally Posted by dancqu View Post
    Second question first. Do NOT split fixing time. A print is
    to be entirely fixed in the first fix. The capacity of the first
    fix can be VERY high. Dissolved silver levels in the first fix can
    be very high. There in lies the reason for the second fix.

    Only that portion of the first fix which is carried by the
    print enters into the second fix. The great bulk of dissolved
    silver remains in the first fix. A second fix reduces considerably
    the levels of dissolved silver and residual silver in the emulsion
    and paper. The name of the game is, reduce dissolved silver
    to a very low level.

    BTW, The Compact Photo Lab Index quotation is speaking
    of the slower Sodium Thiosulfate fixer. Two hundred 8x10s
    is a lot of prints. The chemistry's capacity though is even
    greater than that with film or RC print procesing. With
    those two higher silver levels are OK. Dan
    First paragraph second sentence: Do NOT split fixing
    time. In context that sentence makes no sense. In reality
    we are talking about a two bath fix. Some time in each.
    A 50-50 split of time MAY be as workable a division
    as any. Probably somewhat arbitrary.

    Off hand though I think a 2/3 - 1/3 split might be better.
    As the first fix loads with silver and it's halide components,
    chloride, bromide, and some times iodide, it becomes slower.
    The second fix which is to become first fix is to be kept
    quite clear of silver and those components.

    The thiosulfate ion has a great affinity for silver. Literaly
    the silver is yanked from it's halide components. Essentialy
    a matter of so much silver, so much thiosulfate; a quantitative
    relationship be it chloride, bromide, or iodide. The three
    being less and less soluble in that order.

    The concentration of the fixer has nothing to do with
    a complete clearing of the silver. Years ago I used to think
    there was some magic level of strength below which a fixer
    would not work. Now days I use fixer very dilute, one-shot,
    with archival results from one bath. No stop needed. Dan

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by jstraw View Post
    I use hypo check to monitor my fixer...you know,
    the stuff you drip in that stays clear if the silver
    content is low but turns milky when the fixer is
    exhausted? Are you saying that I can exceed
    that threshhold with a two bath method?
    Maybe maybe not. I've used that stuff, Rexton's Fix-A-Sure.
    That was when all my chemistry was off-the-shelf. Since then
    I've gone home-brew. Now I have a potassium iodide check of
    known strength. That makes it possible to do tests along the
    lines of Kodak's FT-1 test. I've no idea what levels of silver
    were indicated by Rexton's iodide test. Never got around
    to making a direct comparison.

    The Kodak test uses a specified amount of potassium iodide
    in so much solution volume. It is the ONLY fixer test I know
    of so specified. Also, test results are defined.

    Now this is IF. IF your fixer test shows a precipitate at a
    silver level that is lower than the capacity of the first fix
    then you "can exceed that threshhold ..." IIRC, two bath
    fix recommendations usualy instruct that the first bath
    can be used to it's stated capacity.

    Check your supplier of fixer for it's capacity. IIRC, Ilford's
    Rapid Fix is good for 40 8x10s/liter working strength. Be
    sure to read the instructions for working two bath. Dan

  8. #38
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    I'm pretty sure the drops I'm using indicate exhaustion at a threshhold far below 40 8x10s per litre. I probably am dumping perfectly good fixer. (well, not dumping but you know what I mean)
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  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by jstraw View Post
    I'm pretty sure the drops I'm using indicate
    exhaustion at a threshhold far below 40 8x10s
    per litre. I probably am dumping perfectly good
    fixer.
    Like I said the name of the game is very low
    silver levels. Like the stuff I did use, there is no
    coming close to knowing how much silver is in
    the fix. For long lived prints it's a good thing
    that test had you "dumping" early.

    If you read the Ilford fix routines you'll see that
    it is the two bath routine which is much suggested.
    Kodak has never suggested a one minute quick fix in
    film strength fixer.

    The two bath method is the standard for many because,
    Great Capacity And Very Low Silver Levels. Dan

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by jstraw View Post
    I wish there was such a thing as a non-acid stop bath. That water rinse runs against the grain of my new water consumtion policy.
    I used TF-4 for years with just a 30-60 sec water rinse in a large tray after developing. I just agitate the tray or grab the print by the corner and swish it in the tray. I just dump the water tray after a session. Saves having to have running water since I have no running water in my darkroom. I wash my prints in the kitchen sink for about 20-25 mins. Never had any problems with fixing. I selenium tone (or other) my prints days or months after they dry. My darkroom gets too hot in the summer so thats when I usually tone my prints.

    I live in the snow belt by Lake Michigan, water is literally falling out of the sky almost everyday right now though not nearly as bad as the people on Lake Erie.

    James,

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