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  1. #51

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    I've always gone straight from the second fixer into toner mixed with water. But some balanced alkali is added to the toner. I picked this up years ago at a workshop and have always done it. http://stores.photoformulary.com/-st...ley/Detail.bok
    But I don't use plain hypo just my normal second fix. Also I believe that some people don't use any alkali and have no problems.

  2. #52
    MattKing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiernst View Post
    Thanks, Matt.

    One last quick question - since the life of selenium toner is limited by the severely limited life of the hypo clearing agent used for dilution ----- will the toner bath last as long as the indications on the HCA bottle say or will it's life be cut even shorter by mixing it with the toner?


    Again, thanks so much!
    Hiernst:

    I don't know the answer to your question.

    I would point out, however, that selenium toner that is not diluted with HCA has the great advantage of having a very long life. So I expect that the observations about limiting that life refer to the loss of that advantage.
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  3. #53

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    Thanks for the suggestion, Chuck. I just ordered some balanced alkali. It's cheap and I figure it might be a simple/effective way to go.

    Looks like I'm going to try this scenario:

    - Multigrade Developer
    - Ilfostop
    - Rapid Fix 1
    - Rapid Fix 2
    - Selenium Toner (with balanced alkali)
    - HCA
    - Wash and Dry

    For selenium stains, they appear during the process, not after the fact and months later, correct? I'd hate to think I found a good work-process only to discover later that I have ruined prints.

  4. #54
    Guillaume Zuili's Avatar
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    No need to wash before Selenium.
    Fix / water bath / Selenium / Hypo Clear then Wash.

  5. #55

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    Be sure you fix well enough. You probably do not need a full wash before selenium toning, but you should give the print at least a very thorough rinse. FB prints are more of a problem than RC in this regard. HCA may be helpful with them.

  6. #56
    bill spears's Avatar
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    I'm surprised many people wash very little before going into the selenium (some it appears straight to selenium with no wash at all !). If it's Fibre paper it soaks up fixer like a sponge. Stains might not show til months down the line (perhaps, when someone has paid money for the print and its hanging framed and glazed on their wall !!).

    I guess I'm over fussy but for me it's; 2 bath fix - brief wash to get rid of surface fixer - HCA - further slightly longer wash - Selenium - brief wash - HCA - final wash for 30+ mins.
    I know some recommend mixing HCA into the selenium but I like to keep the selenium uncontaminated.

    I stress this is fibre paper and acid fixing baths. I'm not familiar with the alkaline fixers so accept there are probably variations.
    Digital photography is like virtual sex........ you never actually touch the real thing..... or get your hands dirty

  7. #57

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    Bill - lets get this clear. The FB print is saturated with developer, then gets flooded with stop, and then the fixer gets its chance. At this point,the emulsion and substrate, are both loaded with,lets call them fluids. KRST contains fixer,so removing it from the print with washaid, and then re-subjecting the print to toner containing fixer,and then removing it again,seems counter-intuitive to me.
    It seems there are only two sound approaches - a quick rinse after fix -into Se, or -and this makes sense if you wish to evaluate a dry print and select out your best work for toning , the full wash,washaid,routine.
    In my experience,both methods work for me,without problems. Those happen when people try what we,down in the Antipodes,call the "Half-arsed" methods.
    Acid fix ? -what brand do you use ?
    Ian.

  8. #58
    K-G
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill spears View Post
    I'm surprised many people wash very little before going into the selenium (some it appears straight to selenium with no wash at all !). If it's Fibre paper it soaks up fixer like a sponge. Stains might not show til months down the line (perhaps, when someone has paid money for the print and its hanging framed and glazed on their wall !!).

    I guess I'm over fussy but for me it's; 2 bath fix - brief wash to get rid of surface fixer - HCA - further slightly longer wash - Selenium - brief wash - HCA - final wash for 30+ mins.
    I know some recommend mixing HCA into the selenium but I like to keep the selenium uncontaminated.

    I stress this is fibre paper and acid fixing baths. I'm not familiar with the alkaline fixers so accept there are probably variations.
    It's correct that stains can appear long after the processing. That happened to me a few years ago with a series of about 10 larger prints. Nothing showed up during the first half year and then they were set aside for storage. When I took them out again, more than half of them had various staining paterns ( orange/brown ). All the prints were framed with glass in front of them and masonite board as backing behind the acid free mounting board. On one print the glass had broken and I had removed the fragments completely. The prints were stored with front towards back of the next. The print without glass was by far the most stained of them all.
    I suspect that the reasons are

    1. I overestimated the capacity of the fixer so the last prints were not fixed properly. Large print sizes ( 16 X 20 ) can fool you a bit as each one is comparable to 4 8 X 10 .
    2. Vapours from the masonite board has affected the emulsion as the one without proctive glass , and facing the back of the next , was the most damaged.

    Since then I have completely reworked my processing and mounting procedures and have not had any more problems.

    Karl-Gustaf
    Karl-Gustaf Hellqvist

    www.heliochroma.com

  9. #59
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiernst View Post
    One last quick question - since the life of selenium toner is limited by the severely limited life of the hypo clearing agent used for dilution ----- will the toner bath last as long as the indications on the HCA bottle say or will it's life be cut even shorter by mixing it with the toner?
    My experience is that KRST has a very long shelf life both as a cocentrate and made up as working solution.

    However there's no need to add HCA to it when diluting there's Sodium Sulphite present in Selenium toners anyway they don't need more.

    Ian

  10. #60
    bill spears's Avatar
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    KRST contains fixer,so removing it from the print with washaid, and then re-subjecting the print to toner containing fixer,and then removing it again,seems counter-intuitive to me.

    Acid fix ? -what brand do you use ?


    I use Ilford Hypam or Rapid which are fairly similar weak acid fixers (PH around 5 I think).

    I understand selenium toner contains fixer (ammonium thiosulphate) in it but not in the quantities of of the paper fixing baths. My theory is: putting fixer-laden prints straight nto the selenium bath will raise the level of ammonium thiosulpate in it. If this selenium bath is re used (as is often the case) you'll eventually be taking prints out of the fixing bath and putting them into another one !
    As stated I am quite fussy and do like to keep things meticulous, clean and orderly.
    Last edited by bill spears; 07-29-2011 at 04:24 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    Digital photography is like virtual sex........ you never actually touch the real thing..... or get your hands dirty

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