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  1. #61
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill spears View Post
    I use Ilford Hypam or Rapid which are fairly similar weak acid fixers (PH around 5 I think).

    I understand selenium toner contains fixer (ammonium thiosulphate) in it but not in the quantities of of the paper fixing baths. My theory is: putting fixer-laden prints straight nto the selenium bath will raise the level of ammonium thiosulpate in it. If this selenium bath is re used (as is often the case) you'll eventually be taking prints out of the fixing bath and putting them into another one !
    As stated I am quite fussy and do like to keep things meticulous, clean and orderly.
    The critical factor with any fixer carried over into Selenium toner is it's silver content, and particularly it's degree of exhausion beacuse there will be semi-soluble silver-thiosulphate complexes if care isn't taken and these cause staining.

    So two bath fix where the second bath is very fresh isn't a problem, the alternative recommended by Ansel Adams is a plain hypo bath (Sodium Thiosulphate) before Selenium toning.

    Personally I prefer to wash my prints after fixing and use a plain 1-2% Sodium Sulphite solution as a wash aid, I do this because I don't always tone imediately, I prefer to selenium tone in daylight.

    Ian

  2. #62
    bill spears's Avatar
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    I was going to say silver carry over aswell Ian, but yes I suppose most of the silver ends up in the first fixing bath.

    Keeping the selenium working solution ''clean'' it can be re used for quite a long time, and in the knowledge that when you reuse it'll be the same, which I find helps with consistency of results.
    Digital photography is like virtual sex........ you never actually touch the real thing..... or get your hands dirty

  3. #63
    Katie's Avatar
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    Okay ... have read through this thread and the other referenced on page 1.

    Question (preface: I have just started using fiber paper and am interested in bleaching and toning in selenium for the asthetics)

    Do I dev/stop/fix/HCA/archival wash
    Let dry - examine dry down
    Bleach
    Then selenium tone

    If so ... explain to me HOW to go about the bleaching to toning procedure.

    Thanks.

  4. #64
    Katie's Avatar
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    I should add that I plan to do very localized bleaching ... just highlights - not overall print. I have read through the posts on that, too. Tips would be great.

  5. #65
    bill spears's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katie View Post
    Okay ... have read through this thread and the other referenced on page 1.

    Question (preface: I have just started using fiber paper and am interested in bleaching and toning in selenium for the asthetics)

    Do I dev/stop/fix/HCA/archival wash
    Let dry - examine dry down
    Bleach
    Then selenium tone

    If so ... explain to me HOW to go about the bleaching to toning procedure.

    Thanks.
    That sequence is similar to how I'd do it. After bleaching though it's usual to refix and wash before the selenium tone, although going straight to selenium without fixing can yield some interesting effects.
    I would normally print darker and perhaps to a lower contrast with muddy highlights when doing bleach-backs, as the highlights can be lost completely after bleaching and refixing.
    A more common practice would be to Sepia tone after the bleach, then wash, then selenium + final wash.
    Results obtained with any toning combinations are heavily influenced by the type of paper emulsion.

    Bill
    Digital photography is like virtual sex........ you never actually touch the real thing..... or get your hands dirty

  6. #66
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    You need to do some tests, scrap prints and test strips are ideal, there's subtle differances between bleaching slightly and Selenium toning and adding anaother fixing step. Also the type of bleach is critical as well, is it a rehalogenating bleach, or a reducer (ferricyanide & hypo). There's a lot of variables.

    Ian

  7. #67
    Katie's Avatar
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    I have it in my cart now from Freestyle.

    Formulary Potassium Ferricyanide (Bleach) Powder 1 Lb. (this is a rehalogenating, right?)

    Do I need this too?
    Formulary Potassium Bromide 1 lb.

    And what kind of selenium toner should I get? And do I need this too?
    Formulary TF-5 Archival Rapid Fixer 4 Liters to make 16 Liters

  8. #68
    Katie's Avatar
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    This is what I want to do:

    Another, safer or more easy to control way to lighten prints is to mix a reversible bleach so that if you over bleach which is verrrry easy - don't ask me how I know. I just know. You can just rinse the print off, plop the print back in a print developer like Dektol and bring the print back to full density - and then, bleach again. Once you are sure you have the density you want, rinse the bleached print fully and then fix, wash aid, and do a full wash, etc just like normal.

    Reversible bleaches are called rehalogenating bleaches. They turn your image back into a bleached but developable condition.

    The proportions are not critical. I just stick with general proportions like the below, but I mix far less.
    potassium ferricyanide . . . . 10 grams
    potassium bromide . . . . . . . .5 grams
    water to . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 litre
    I dilute the bleach till it is working slowly enough to be controllable - quite diluted. It can be applied locally witha brush or a qtip so that you have control of details and portions of a print.

    And if you overbleach, the print is not ruined, just rinse it off, put it back in the dektol to redevelop and start again. You can also locally redevelop with a brush or qtip too, so that the control is like a second chance to burn and dodge, but in room light.

    I mix small amounts and chuck any remains of the bleach after one use.

    Note that through redevelopment you can go no darker than your original print so the process does have it's limits. Once you fix the print you will have removed any developable silver and put a limit on the ability to darken the print. It's the fixer that removes undeveloped silver halides. So, I do not add fixer into my bleaches but keep them as a final separate step. There are a lot of posts and threads here on bleaching.

  9. #69
    trexx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katie View Post
    Formulary Potassium Ferricyanide (Bleach) Powder 1 Lb. (this is a rehalogenating, right?)
    Yes
    Do I need this too?
    Formulary Potassium Bromide 1 lb.
    Yes
    And what kind of selenium toner should I get?
    KRST Kodak Rapis Selenium Toner
    And do I need this too?
    Formulary TF-5 Archival Rapid Fixer 4 Liters to make 16 Liters
    Yes, TF-5 or TF-4 . TF-4 is what I use, mostly out of habit, but does smell of ammonia.
    D-76 is a standard developer, although not one I use.
    Ansel Adams - The Negative

  10. #70
    bill spears's Avatar
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    Basically sounds about right Katie.
    A few points worth mentioning though:
    When you bleach-back highlights with Ferri to the density you want, fixing it usually lightens it even further. Then you're left with a totally featureless highlight that cant be recovered in developer (because the silver has been fixed out).

    Another method is to mix the fixer and bleach together in one solution (Farmers Reducer). This way you see the bleaching and lightening occurring at the same. It's VERY easy to go too far though and best to stop before you reach the density you want with a sloosh of water.
    I'm not sure of the correct ratios or dilutions of fixer/bleach to make Farmers and I think certain types of fixer (is it sodium thiosulphate ?) are normally used.
    My experience of bleaching is it takes considerable practice and patience (especially doing fine details with a brush). Be prepared to screw up quite a few prints !!
    Just to add another obstacle........ some emulsions bleach much quicker and easier than others.
    Digital photography is like virtual sex........ you never actually touch the real thing..... or get your hands dirty

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