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  1. #11

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    It looks rather 3-dimensional to me tim.
    More info on the creative possibilities would be welcome to me too.

  2. #12
    gainer's Avatar
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    Excuse me for acting the Devil's advocate, but I would like to see the other side of the sailor. It looks somewhat like rim lighting to me, partly because the width of the line varies more with position than with density difference. It certianly adds to the 3-D effect whichever it is. A better test, I think, would be a dark-light boundary on a flat surface where light cannot come from behind the test surface. In other words, are you sure you would NOT see the same visual effect looking directly at the original scene?
    Gadget Gainer

  3. #13
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    Oh ye of little faith!

    " In other words, are you sure you would NOT see the same visual effect looking directly at the original scene?" pat

    A fair question pat, but here is another copy. I looked for the same print, but only found a warm tone version, so hopefully it will suffice for the sake of argument. The only way to "see" this image as it was taken and then printed, would be to use a pair of 3-D glasses or perhaps a few micrograms of LSD (not sure about magic mushrooms, but the jury is still out on that one). A rim lighting effect could have contributed to the edge effects here, but since the light is from the front / right, I don't think it is the light but film and developer combination which is showing an edge. Take a look at the lower portions of both arms against the wall, the edge effect is still there on both sides. The trade off, in this case, seems to be with enlarged grain (clumping, as it were) due to protracted development.

    Second image was a TX400 shot with semi-stand development and pyrocat. Twice the time with very little edge effect, but it is a 6x6 shot, so enlargement isn't really a fair comparison. Best, tim

    P.S. The kid in the pictures is my son in his "Sea cadets" uniform last fall. He has since joined the Army and will ship out to Iraq in March. Second shot was of him on leave last month. There are still some decent kids out there.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails patedge.jpg   pfctx4001.jpg  

  4. #14

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    Regarding the surge effects doing 120 (semi) stand development. I spent quite a bit of time with Trix and Tmax400 120, with Rodinal and Pyrocat HC trying to find some combination of intitial agitation, and interim agitation, from 1-2 min initial, and 1,2,or 3 interim periods of 15-20 sec over a 18 - 30 minute development time. Some a 2minute presoak, some none. All were done with a SS nikkor type reel and tank. Some filled the tank with developer, some just enough to cover the reel. Most of the interim agitations were rolling the tank side to side, as was suggested above. I even put a reel in a small 4x5 development tank (made for hangers) and just lifted it in and out for agitation. I had serveral PM's with Don Cardwell about it, who has a personal interest in Rodinal. In the end, not one roll was totally free of surge problems (and not repeatable either), even the PyroHD, so I abandoned the idea, and just did my Trix in HC110, no edge magic, but no surge either.
    Then recently I tried a roll of FP4 with Pyro HD -
    2.4:1.6:400 Pyrocat HD (don't ask)
    Dev at 73º, 1 min presoak, agitate 1.75 min,
    develop for 30min, agitate 15 sec every 10 minutes (one inversion and rolling)
    Hunky dory - beautiful negs.
    so, I'm guessing the problem is with the Trix?

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by noseoil View Post
    " In other words, are you sure you would NOT see the same visual effect looking directly at the original scene?" pat

    A fair question pat, but here is another copy. I looked for the same print, but only found a warm tone version, so hopefully it will suffice for the sake of argument. The only way to "see" this image as it was taken and then printed, would be to use a pair of 3-D glasses or perhaps a few micrograms of LSD (not sure about magic mushrooms, but the jury is still out on that one). A rim lighting effect could have contributed to the edge effects here, but since the light is from the front / right, I don't think it is the light but film and developer combination which is showing an edge. Take a look at the lower portions of both arms against the wall, the edge effect is still there on both sides. The trade off, in this case, seems to be with enlarged grain (clumping, as it were) due to protracted development.

    Second image was a TX400 shot with semi-stand development and pyrocat. Twice the time with very little edge effect, but it is a 6x6 shot, so enlargement isn't really a fair comparison. Best, tim

    P.S. The kid in the pictures is my son in his "Sea cadets" uniform last fall. He has since joined the Army and will ship out to Iraq in March. Second shot was of him on leave last month. There are still some decent kids out there.
    My question really was whether or not the light coming from the front and side was reflecting off some part of the wall behind, thus increasing the edge effect.
    Gadget Gainer

  6. #16

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    Here is a magnified picture of a gray card on a black card,originally printed enlarged x10. Plus-X,Pyrocat HD semi stand 50min 68F. The scale at the bottom has 1mm small divisions.
    There is a light line on the gray card at the edge by the black card about 1mm wide.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_2350.jpg  

  7. #17
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    Alan, interesting shot above. Would be curious to see the same thing with your other films. Nice way of showing the difference. tim

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Johnson View Post
    Here is a magnified picture of a gray card on a black card,originally printed enlarged x10. Plus-X,Pyrocat HD semi stand 50min 68F. The scale at the bottom has 1mm small divisions.
    There is a light line on the gray card at the edge by the black card about 1mm wide.
    Still not quite convinced this one is not an optical illusion. When I hold a white card against the screen and move it to where it just obscures the darker area, I could not see a definite white line. There is enough randomness in the image on both sides to obscure it to me. Maybe I'm not looking at it right. I'll have to try it myself with various developers to see if I can see it

    Is the texture the surface of the cards or is it grain?
    Gadget Gainer

  9. #19

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    I think the texture is the reflection of direct flash on the surface of Ilford Multigrade pearl paper.
    Actually the line is rather more visible on the original print(10x enlargement).

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