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  1. #11
    Dave Miller's Avatar
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    IMO there is no need to use any rinse aid in distilled water, or to risk mechanical damage by wiping the film. The film should be well washed in plain water, and then in distilled for the last wash/rinse.
    Regards Dave.

    An English Eye


  2. #12
    Valerie's Avatar
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    I, too, have well water. I use distilled water with the developer, and with the photo-flo (very diluted). I also had a problem with spotting until changing to the distilled H20/dilute photo-flo combination.
    "So I am turning over a new leaf but the page is stuck". Diane Arbus

  3. #13
    Lee L's Avatar
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    I have heavy mineral content in my city water. I use inexpensive spring water from nearby for most steps, including an Ilford style wash cycle, then distilled for developer and final rinse.

    I have to let stand for about 1 hour in a distilled final rinse if I use town water for the wash. About 30-40 minutes suffices with the spring water. Otherwise I get mineral spotting.

    Lee

  4. #14
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    The key issues here may have to do with the actual chemistry of the water, in combination with the form that it is left in on the film. If my film drains cleanly (as the sheet film normally does) there is no detectable deposit other than a small amount of residue at the lowest corner. Roll film, on the other hand, seems to hold droplets, and if I don't squeegee them off, spots develop. (The water here is hard enough that a single drop will make a solid white spot when it evaporates. Mostly carbonates, but enough salt to create visible cubic crystals in the deposit as well. Interestingly, it doesn't seem to have any noticeable adverse effects on the chemistry, FP4+ in PMK).

    Spritzing the film with Photoflo solution worked when I lived elsewhere, but the film and chemistry were different then, too. What works now is the five-minute final wash in very dilute Photoflo; I'd be interested to know why this should work!

    It is hard to argue with the distilled water/Photoflo final wash approach; why fight a problem when you can avoid it in the first place?

  5. #15
    winger's Avatar
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    Well, I tried re-washing tonight. I used diluted vinegar for a soak, then 2 distilled water soaks that were about 20 minutes each. I squeegeed off with my fingers (I had washed them and did not put lotion on). I still have a deposit. I don't know if I washed off the old one and made a new one or if what's there is still the original. The last rinse the first time was distilled and all of today's had distilled, not well water. I know the well water is very hard - even after the softener, it's still hard.
    Since the film is HIE, I'm sure there's a frame I can use for experimenting. That's next.
    What concentration of white vinegar would be useful and still safe with HIE?

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by winger View Post
    Well, I tried re-washing tonight. I used diluted vinegar for a soak, then 2 distilled water soaks that were about 20 minutes each. I squeegeed off with my fingers (I had washed them and did not put lotion on). I still have a deposit. I don't know if I washed off the old one and made a new one or if what's there is still the original. The last rinse the first time was distilled and all of today's had distilled, not well water. I know the well water is very hard - even after the softener, it's still hard.
    Since the film is HIE, I'm sure there's a frame I can use for experimenting. That's next.
    What concentration of white vinegar would be useful and still safe with HIE?
    Bethe;
    I think part of your problem is letting the film sit in the water so long. Also, I don't understand the reasoning behind using vinegar as a rinse? vinegar is much the same as acetic acid and I would think you used the acetic after the developer? In over 50 years of darkroom work and part of that in a custom lab in NYC, I never found a reason to use anything other than tap water as a bath. Film needs being washed in MOVING water and if you can get one, use a film washer for it. I use dish detergent instead of photoflo to wet the surface of the film and then I squeegie it off with two damp fingers. In fifty years I have never needed anything else. The only way I would use spring water or distilled water is if I had enough to wash film in a moving stream of it. Just sitting in the water causes the chemicals to leech out into the water but they stay there and then transfer back to the film. I used NYC water as well as NJ water and that stuff was like rocks but I never had problems as long as I kept the water running in a constant stream. You may not be able to remove the residue from your film as it may well be the chemicals leeched back into the film and became part of the film. If you have trouble printing the film, coat the film with a very thin coat of Vaseline; get it as thin as you can, that should help in printing but be very sure to remove the Vaseline before storing it. Vaseline also helps hide scratches in the film. Carry a jar in your camera bag to make your own vignetting and soft filters.

    I hope this helps.
    Michael

  7. #17
    Lee L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeb380 View Post
    Bethe;
    Film needs being washed in MOVING water and if you can get one, use a film washer for it. <snip> The only way I would use spring water or distilled water is if I had enough to wash film in a moving stream of it. Just sitting in the water causes the chemicals to leech out into the water but they stay there and then transfer back to the film. <snip>
    Michael,

    Over the last couple of decades people have tested washes for both paper and film using changes of standing water, and this has been found to be a very effective method of washing prints and film. It also saves water. A constant exchange of water is not necessary. The main mechanism for removal of fixer is diffusion (leeching) and a sequence of baths quickly drops the levels of fixer in the film to archival standards and below. Once the concentration of fixer in the water and film reach equilibrium, the fixer does not preferentially attach back to the film. The Ilford wash method changes the water rapidly at first, then more slowly to allow the concentration of fixer in the water and film to come closer to equilibrium, making more efficient use of water. Many people have adopted the Ilford wash method, which is discussed here http://www.largeformatphotography.in...or/ilfwash.pdf as well as other places.

    With non-hardening fixers, wash times can be shorter, and wash aids can also shorten times. Hardening fixers bond more tightly to the film/paper/emulsion and take longer to diffuse out.

    Lee

  8. #18
    gainer's Avatar
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    Acetic acid between developer and fixer is not the same as vinegar to dissolve calcium and magnesium deposits from hard water.
    The vinegar should be distilled white vinegar, obtainable at the grocery store. Don't be afraid to wrap a soft towel, either cloth or paper, around your fingers when you squeegee the excess water off. Anything the water had in it will surely remain on the film concentrated by evaporation.

    If that doesn't work, the deposit was not limestone. Maybe you should have it analyzed to see if it's safe to drink.
    Gadget Gainer

  9. #19
    wfe
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    I use distilled water in the developer and then well water for the balance of the process. Final rinse is in well water with some Sprint Wash stuff (soap suds), a bit of alcohol and well water. No residue on the film but well water will vary greatly.

    Cheers,
    Bill
    ~Bill
    "Real Art is a Thin Breath Exhaled Amidst a Struggle in the Mind"
    Fine Art and Portraits

  10. #20
    winger's Avatar
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    The use of the vinegar at this stage is to dissolve and remove the deposits left by the well water. The part that bothers me is that I used distilled water for the final rinse and to rinse after the vinegar, yet I still have the limescale/calcium. I wonder if there is just so much stuff in the well water that rinsing just isn't going to get rid of it?
    Last night, I later took a Q-tip and rubbed lightly with vinegar on one frame, then with water on it. A fair amount of the deposit was removed. So I think I'll have to go with wiping the residue off. Just think of how tough it is to clean a shower that's got hard water deposits on it - it isn't easy to get this stuff off.
    And I'm going to put some type of filter on the faucet, too.

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