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  1. #61

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    Patrick, feel free to use your 20 Mule Team. It obviously meets your needs. It meets your empirical requirements as you have demonstrated to yourself time after time. That's fine. That's great. Have fun.

    For me, I don't have a lot of time to play around with developers. When I develop stuff, I use the tools that I know are designed for the job. I only get one chance to develop that sheet of film, and I want to give it the best chance of getting processed well that I can give it.

    I'm still working off my old bottle of Kodak Borax that I bought years ago. I have to trust that Kodak was selling me the same thing that they were using in their formulations. (Seems like a reasonable assumption.) I like to and I want to use something that is certified as meeting the needs for the task. I use my 20 Mule Team for washing my clothes. I don't use the Kodak borax for washing my clothes.

    So keep using your grocercy store chemicals. It's fine. It's working for you. Don't worry about changing. I just want others reading these threads to fully know about and hopefully understand the trade-offs that they are accepting by making these kinds of decisions.

    Kirk - not an engineer, but a chemist.

  2. #62
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    Kirk, I don't care what you use. It's your unsupported arguments I deplore. You claim to use chemicals you know, but you don't really know them any better than you know 20 Mule Team Borax, which from what I have read of purity statements could be as good as or better than what you are using. At least I looked into the manufacturer's data and procedures. For all you know, the stuff with the Kodak label was purchased as technical grade borax from what is now Dial corporation. You can read all about it at www.borax.com, but your only response to my statement that 20 Mule Team Borax is in fact technical grade, is suitable and is used in eyedrops, is stated to be non-abrasive in promotional literature by its manufacturer, has as nearly as we can tell the same borax content as the Analytical Reagent grade purchased by one of our members, is a defense of using a product that you do not know as much about. You see, I hope, that nothing I have learned by diligent search tells me that what I use is any more likely to cause failure than what you use, and instead of searching or experimenting for more information on either product, you present an unsupported argument for a different name brand that may in fact be the same quality. What the h-e-double hockeysticks is scientific about that?
    Gadget Gainer

  3. #63
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    Well, now, you didn't get ,or at least didn't absorb, what I did at NASA. I thought I told you about designing and writing the transformation equations for the Mercury Astronauts backup reentry guidance. I thought I told you about retiring from NASA with a position description that read "a nationally known expert in the non-linear mathematical modelling of the human operator" which was the way I put to work my courses in Psychology at what was then the College of William and Mary. I thought I told you guys about being responsible and in fact doing the photographic part of a fatigue test of a particular aircraft that must remain unidentified, using homemade apparatus for photographing fatigue cracks in bolt holes. I did the darkroom work as well because knowledge of photography was not enough. If it had been, our very professional Photographic Branch could have done the job. I thought I might have told you about some of my escapades with strange circuits hung on the circuit board of our analog computer, or the design of our planetarium projector that was used in human factors experiments in connection with the Moon landing.

    One of my favorite engineering instructors at WVU taught Business Law for engineers. He was fond of saying "Engineers can do anything." The College of Engineering in those days was just that. For nearly the whole of the first three years, including summers, mechanical, electrical, chemical and aeronautical engineering students had the same courses. We had surveying, strength of materials, basic physics, inorganic chemistry, etc. Enough, already. Maybe too much,
    Gadget Gainer

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by gainer View Post
    I thought I told you about [multiple items].
    Patrick - you have told me about those things. I really enjoyed hearing about them. They were great things to have done. That's really cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by gainer View Post
    [My engineering professor] was fond of saying "Engineers can do anything."
    Nice saying. I'm sure engineers could if they wanted, but I'll still keep going to doctors and dentists and lawyers for what they do. And I go to chemists for what they do.

    But what's your point? This sounds like one of those arguments from authority.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Keyes View Post
    Differences from Photographic Grade, I don't know.
    I don't have the specs. But I suspect it is similar.
    Via Google I checked for "photographic grade" . All sorts
    of information. ISO 10349 covers the grade from
    standards to methods. How about Lithium
    Sulfate Photographic Grade. Dan

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by gainer View Post
    It's your unsupported arguments I deplore.
    Pat, there's FUD on your side of the argument, and there's FUD on my side of the argument.

    Have you demonstrated that Technical Grade is in fact what Kodak sold? Have you demonstrated that Technical Grade meets Photographic Grade specifications?

    No.

    You can't argue with my view that you should use the right tool for the right job. And personally, I want to try and avoid using an almost good enough tool, or a tool that I don't have confidence in, for the job I have at hand.

    You are certainly free to do so.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by dancqu View Post
    ISO 10349
    So who want to cough up 42 Swiss Francs for this:

    ISO 3621:1994
    Photography -- Processing chemicals -- Specifications for sodium tetraborate decahydrate

    http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue...S2=040&ICS3=30

    Then we'll all know the specification.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancqu View Post
    Via Google I checked for "photographic grade" . All sorts
    of information. ISO 10349 covers the grade from
    standards to methods. How about Lithium
    Sulfate Photographic Grade. Dan
    Kodak uses many lithium salts in making analog products. Lithium salts are used in the RA color developer to name one use.

    Kodak is ISO certified and uses all ISO standard materials so that they can maintain their ISO certification for all manufacturing processes including photochemicals.

    PE

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by gainer View Post
    but your only response to my statement that 20 Mule Team Borax is in fact technical grade
    My response is what is the specification for Technical Grade. My understanding is that it is different that ACS Reagent Grade, which I listed earlier. Usually of lesser quality. I would not use Tech Grade acetone in one of my analysis when I need ACS Reagent grade.

    Would you be so kind as to post the specs for Technical Grade?

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by gainer View Post
    For all you know, the stuff with the Kodak label was
    purchased as technical grade borax from what is
    now Dial corporation.
    Well I don't know about Eastman's Borax but the Acetic
    Acid they turn out comes in six Grades; photo, food, feed,
    reagent, kosher, and USP.

    Photographic Grade is BIG Business. As I've mentioned
    ISO 10349 covers the subject start to scratch. Dan



 

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