Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 70,571   Posts: 1,545,604   Online: 956
      
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 16
  1. #1

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    1,145

    Can films detect lenses of high resolution?

    Many B/W films have quoted resolution of 100-200 line pairs/mm.
    But prime lenses may have aerial resolution 300-600 lppm.
    For example, can 100 T-max respond to lens of high aerial resolution?
    Here is the MTF curve for 100 T-max:
    http://www.kodak.com/global/en/profe...002_0542ac.gif
    Thanks.

  2. #2
    AgX
    AgX is offline

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    8,616
    Alan,

    often resolutions of lenses, films, etc. are compared 1/1. Which then leads to the idea of "superfluous" resolution, with the resolution of one component exceeding the resolution of the component which one considers crucial.

    However,

    There is is that rule:
    The reciprocal of the system overall resolution is made by the sum of the reciprocals of the componnent.

    1/R(t) = 1/R(c1) + 1/R (c2)....


    That means that a lens of higher resolution can still render better results in the final image with a film of inferior resolution than a lens of `apt´ resolution would do.

    In the case you refer to, however, a film of inferior resolution cannot reveal fully the quality (concerning resolution) of a superior lens.

    To do so the film must have a resolution much higher than that lens.


    Furthermore one should be carefully with dealing with resolution as something static (in the meaning of highest possible resolution under certain extreme contrast situations); the concept of the MTF gives a better outcome.
    Last edited by AgX; 12-30-2007 at 05:39 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  3. #3
    Dave Miller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Middle England
    Shooter
    Medium Format
    Posts
    3,894
    Images
    2
    Alan, what sort of prime lens do you have in mind? I think you may have included an extra nought on your figures.
    Regards Dave.

    An English Eye


  4. #4

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    1,145
    Dave,

    I used resolution since most of the film data,except Kodak, is given as resolution lppm. Most lens data is as MTF.I did not find much on aerial resolution of lenses.The 300-600 lppm figures I quoted were from the section on lens resolution here:
    http://www.stockphotoonline.com/C01_...Resolution.htm
    I wondered if others agree with this assessment,it is not often commented on.

  5. #5
    keithwms's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Charlottesville, Virginia
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    6,079
    Blog Entries
    20
    Images
    129
    Sometimes we think of being lens limited or film limited, and there are cases where you are one or the other, but it's more helpful to think of the whole equation, as AgX mentions.

    Anyway, at a single wavelength one might get very high MTF values from a lens, but no film has monochromatic sensitivity. You can try to make a lens super apo or try to match it to a specific film sensitivity curve... but at some point it's just an academic exercise. There are so many other things that convolve to limit your resolution, like diffraction, film flatness .... technique

    I prefer AgX's approach of thinking of the system as a whole.
    "Only dead fish follow the stream"

    [APUG Portfolio] [APUG Blog] [Website]

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    37
    Aerial resolution is, what you see life - camerashutter is opened, in the film-area you pose your microscope with minimum aperture 1 or higher and you look through to a star-like object. The astronomical people have thick books about the different diffraction rings you see from stars (or light-point-scources), depending on the quality of your calculated and sometimes self produced optical system. With the program Optalix I calculate sometimes optics. All optical programs will show the resolution or MTF-function of your calculated system.

    Visual you can see (depending on your health) more as you can detect on high resolution films up to 1000 linepairs/mm. Perhaps this is not correct, when you use high speed holofilms with around 2000 linepairs/ millimeter resolution. Once I have done it. The bad of these holofilms is: they are absolutely clear and react like a lightpipe. They have speeds around 3-6 ISO, but you must load your camera in real darkness.

    The next is - you photograph on earth terrestrical things, not stars. You need depth of focus. You need planety of field, no curvature of field as any optics will have (normal have 10xf curvature radius, very well have 40xf). Optical design is, to construct a special "caustic" form, where the ray-beams will get the smallest point. Correct calculated, the smallest point with best resolution is very sensitive in focusing, but changing the caustic form to a kind of hour glass, where the small part is very very long, you can minimize the influence of curvature of field, because in the center of the image your caustic is starting on one of the end, and on the corners of the picture, where normally unsharpness must be through curvature of filed, is just the other end of the caustic. Thats the trick optic design use. When you use this trick, you minimize a little your possible resolution.

    To the practical question: Of course it makes sense, to use a better lens for "normal" resolution films. A friend of mine bought the Zeiss ZM 1:2/50mm for his Nikon, using with normal 400 ISO films. He was astonished about the better sharpness now. Of course, never he would reach the optical values of this lens with normal 400 ISO films. But now there is more detail, even in grainy parts. And he has a lens for better films - who will know?

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    1,145
    Interesting the effect found with the Zeiss lens and 400 ISO film.
    I heard similar before with Leica and Delta 400, admitted with somewhat disbelief.
    Perhaps the smallest of the grains may line up to form image at low contrast,it's hard to explain.

  8. #8
    AgX
    AgX is offline

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    8,616
    That’s why I referred to the MTF.
    Think of a theorethical aero lens with an extreme max. resolution (let’s forget about the sensor), however with a mediocre contrast transfer over a wide range of resolutions. That lens could be quite useful to a skilled interpreter with his technical means, in case maximum resolution would be the main issue. For general pictorial use such a lens would be counterproductive, a common lens with much lower max. resolution but higher contrast transfer over its whole range would give more pleasant results due to its `brilliance´.


    However in that case of those new Zeiss lenses with their proclaimed high resolution, I expect that they will have a rather high overall contrast transfer too. Thus using such a lens on a film with rather low resolution could gain higher micro-contrast in those fields of the film's resolution or even below, than a lens some decades older.

    You can turn the whole thing round: Using high resolution pictorial films on motives with do not have such details which would call for the use of such films can still result in better micro-contrast than the use of some common film. (That’s why the manufacturers of such film/developer combos tend to advice them as general purpose films.

  9. #9
    braxus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Fraser Valley BC Canada
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    425
    Up until this year, Kodak Gold 100 was probably the sharpest color neg film out there. That was versions 1 to 6. Now 7 the MTF has gone down. TMAX 100 may be one of the last very sharp films out there.

  10. #10
    dpurdy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Portland OR USA
    Shooter
    8x10 Format
    Posts
    2,049
    Images
    38
    Quote Originally Posted by braxus View Post
    Up until this year, Kodak Gold 100 was probably the sharpest color neg film out there. That was versions 1 to 6. Now 7 the MTF has gone down. TMAX 100 may be one of the last very sharp films out there.
    According to their original marketing, ACROS was the sharpest regular film available.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast


 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin