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  1. #21
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Well, if Alex sees it on Polaroid, you have to remember that Polaroid products are on the thin side in terms of gelatin, and the silver stays close to the surface, so this dispels my idea about gelatin depth being a factor.

    PE

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by williamgregory View Post
    "However, as a carbon printer accustomed to making prints that have very great physical relief, and a 3-D presence that can not be missed, the tactile qualities of most silver papers, AZO included do not impress me much.

    Sandy King"

    Sandy, what is "physical relief" ?

    William,

    Carbon prints are comprised of pigmented gelatin. The shadows are thicker/higher than the mid-tones and the highlights, giving the print a real hill and valley look, especially prominent when the print is viewed with light from the side. The physical relief is quite real, not just appearance. This quality is highly distinctive and unique to carbon prints.

    I would add that the actual relief appearance of carbon prints varies a great deal depending on a number of factors. I tend to favor working procedures that accentuate the relief effect.

    Sandy

  3. #23

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    It's All In The Mind, You Know! (Neddy Secombe and the other Goons)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Hawley View Post
    Ahhh, that indeed may be the cause Ole, now that I think of it. I'm comparing a 4x5 contact print to an 8x10 enlargement from the same negative. Quite the difference in the appearance and I think its independent of the paper each is printed on.
    It's Helpful - I think - to go back to the seminal 18th century work on Stereopsis (i.e. the differences in points of view of our two eyes) by Charles Wheatstone FRS (1802-1875) and Sir David Brewster (1781-1868).
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  4. #24

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    From my experience I notice the 3D effect in a B&W negatives, it does have that wow factor that is hard to duplicate in a print. I wonder if this somehow analogous to how holograms work.

  5. #25
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    Tom;

    It is all in the mind. I have around 6 - 8 hours of Goon shows to prove it!

    PE

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Well, if Alex sees it on Polaroid, you have to remember that Polaroid products are on the thin side in terms of gelatin, and the silver stays close to the surface, so this dispels my idea about gelatin depth being a factor.
    PE -
    I suspect that he is referring to prints made from the Type 55 neg on B&W papers and not in the Polaroid print itself. But what's the resolution on a Type 55 neg - it's not very high at all.

  7. #27
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    Not very high resolution, but yeah, I goofed. Thanks Kirk.

    PE

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Hawley View Post
    I'd differ with you on that Jed. I can get the 3-D effect easily on a 4x5 contact print. I can also see it on a 4x5 Polaroid Type 55 print. I'm using lenses made in the 1940s, either a Commercial Ektar or a Dagor Series III.
    You are not differing with me. I wrote that you can observe the 3-D effect on a small size print using a lens of the first part of the 20 th century. However, 4x5" was not the prefered size in Europe, but a little larger 13x18 cm (centimeters!). With some modern lenses, I have to go to at least 16x20" (from a 4x5" negative).
    The 3-D effect is well known by painters, since it has been introduced by Leonardo da Vinci. I have studied the effect via photographs by taking photographs in areas where painters used to work. In Italy, Southern France (van Gogh and Cezanne), Spain, The Netherlands, Germany and England. It is interesting to note the differences ( there is more than just a 3-D effect) between the countries with their different climates, and then compare the paintings with the photographs.

    Jed

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Keyes View Post
    I suspect that he is referring to prints made from the Type 55 neg on B&W papers and not in the Polaroid print itself. But what's the resolution on a Type 55 neg - it's not very high at all.
    Actually, I've seen it on all the above. The Type 55 prints themselves, which are contact prints, and contact prints from Type 55 negatives made on Azo, enlarging paper, and Ron's hand-coated paper.

    On the Polaroid prints, I suspect most of the effect is due to the coating that's applied after development. That adds a lot of depth.

    The thing that struck me when I first entered this thread was the difference I had seen between a type 55 contact print I had made, probably on Azo, and the same negative enlarged up to 8x10. This was one from my barn wood series. I simply could not get as dramatic a print when I enlarged it as I did with the contact print.

    I think overall, there are several factors in play here. Perhaps the so-called 3-D effect is not always attributable to one single factor. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the subject lighting and how that plays in the the perceived depth of view. That would get right back to what Jed was talking about with paintings.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by David A. Goldfarb View Post
    I've seen this effect with contact R-prints made from 8x10" color transparencies, so I don't even think it's particularly a B&W effect, so much as the edge sharpness and smooth tonality one gets by removing the whole optical system of enlargement (whether by projection or digital) from the process.
    Even a lowly proof sheet from a 120 color negative has that extra "snap" that makes images jump off the page. It's the umami of visual perception.
    Using film since before it was hip.


    "One of the most singular characters of the hyposulphites, is the property their solutions possess of dissolving muriate of silver and retaining it in considerable quantity in permanent solution" — Sir John Frederick William Herschel, "On the Hyposulphurous Acid and its Compounds." The Edinburgh Philosophical Journal, Vol. 1 (8 Jan. 1819): 8-29. p. 11

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