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  1. #21
    Sparky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpurdy View Post
    ...but I thought perhaps it could be done subtly with developers and I still don't understand why it can't be. But perhaps it is a matter of being too subtle to see.
    That's not it. You're making the assumption that the highlights (the curve toe) are somehow being developed independently from the shadows (the shoulder), as though the shoulder fills in first and works across to 'the left' (if you get what i'm saying). As mentioned before - development happens pretty evenly across the density range... so by switching developers midway - you're just continuing development but adding a slight characteristic of the 2nd developer into the mix. The effect really SHOULDN'T be significantly different from what you'd get simply mixing the two developers.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpurdy View Post
    I have done the dye experiment using procion dye and it works actually. I have done it with silver prints and platinum prints. You can make it as subtle or as radical as you want. But dye has the affect of reducing highlight contrast.

    I am not into toning though I do it occassionally and the split tone I can get out of selenium is not what I want. I know some people do toning with both selenium and sepia toning and get a very nice cool warm split color but I thought perhaps it could be done subtly with developers and I still don't understand why it can't be. But perhaps it is a matter of being too subtle to see.

    The other question that I thought someone might know the answer to is why the order of strong/weak developer split makes a difference. Strong developer first making more contrasty print and weak developer first making less contrasty print. But there was a suggestion earlier about developer incorporation that might be the answer. If there is developer incorporated, perhaps it reacts most with the initial development and the second developer is not affected by it.
    I'm not referring to toning or dyeing a silver image. I am referring to developing. The developer dyes only the part of the image it is developing. It is not the same as dyeing the image that resulted from another developer. I'm trying to tell you why the sequence of hard and soft developer may not work as planned. The color depends, in absence of a dye image, on the size of the grains. You can't tell what color will result when half a grain is fine and the other half is course, but you can pretty well expect them all to be about the same. You should have figured that out from your tests.

    Why would a combination of Pyrocat and some other developer not be considered a subtle use of two developers?

    You can test the paper to see if it has developer incorporated. Try to develop it in a strong carbonate solution.
    Gadget Gainer

  3. #23
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    Well I was able to do it today. It was as I thought only the mistake I made before was not using enough postas Bromide in the first developer. Today I have been printing with first developer Ansco 130 mixed as it is published and with a Dupont cold tone developer formulawith the addition of a small amout of Benzotriazol as the second developer. It took a few tests to get the exposure and the contrast down but I ended up processing first in Ansco 130 for 3 minutes and in the Dupont formula for 2 minutes... in very dim light to avoid fogging. It was helpful to have reference prints made in each developer individually and to lay prints out as I worked side by side as it is subtle. But there is not doubt it does work and I quite like it. It gives, as I had hoped, as subtly more three D print as the cool nature of the dark tones holds back while the warmth of the whites seems to come forward. I am not sure the times I used in the developers is best. I think that a shorter time in the first developer might work as with my tests the Glycin gave a decided warmth to the paper after just a minute and a half but I got better tone in the upper end leaving the prints in longer.

    Using pyro might work in the same way though I don't have any on hand. Actually I think I have some that has been in solution for a couple of years. Pyro tho stains the silver, so it would tend to turn the shadows warmer or greener which I think would be harder to see and would be the opposite direction I am trying to go but might be an interesting way to go.

    So thanks guys for weighing in on my experiment and question. Clearly there is not much interest in doing this. The other question I still don't get, why does switching the order of the developers make such a contrast difference? I did try the sodium carbonate test but it didn't seem to do anything. I just tried it once.

    Dennis

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpurdy View Post
    Well I was able to do it today. It was as I thought only the mistake I made before was not using enough postas Bromide in the first developer. Today I have been printing with first developer Ansco 130 mixed as it is published and with a Dupont cold tone developer formulawith the addition of a small amout of Benzotriazol as the second developer. It took a few tests to get the exposure and the contrast down but I ended up processing first in Ansco 130 for 3 minutes and in the Dupont formula for 2 minutes... in very dim light to avoid fogging. It was helpful to have reference prints made in each developer individually and to lay prints out as I worked side by side as it is subtle. But there is not doubt it does work and I quite like it. It gives, as I had hoped, as subtly more three D print as the cool nature of the dark tones holds back while the warmth of the whites seems to come forward. I am not sure the times I used in the developers is best. I think that a shorter time in the first developer might work as with my tests the Glycin gave a decided warmth to the paper after just a minute and a half but I got better tone in the upper end leaving the prints in longer.

    Using pyro might work in the same way though I don't have any on hand. Actually I think I have some that has been in solution for a couple of years. Pyro tho stains the silver, so it would tend to turn the shadows warmer or greener which I think would be harder to see and would be the opposite direction I am trying to go but might be an interesting way to go.

    So thanks guys for weighing in on my experiment and question. Clearly there is not much interest in doing this. The other question I still don't get, why does switching the order of the developers make such a contrast difference? I did try the sodium carbonate test but it didn't seem to do anything. I just tried it once.

    Dennis
    If carbonate alone does not produce any image, it just means there is no developer incorporated in that paper. That is a good thing when you are trying to get a subtle effect from a particular developer formulation.
    I may have to try the pyro trick myself, just to see if it does work. I do think for this purpose it would be best formulated with hydroquinone rather than catechol or pyrogallol. When it's the color itself you're after rather than the effect of the color as a filter, you have the choice of pyrogallol, pyrocatechin or hydroquinone. It's interesting how much difference the placement of one OH group or the addition of one more can make. All three are hydroxybenzenes.

    Do you rinse between developers? Bromide content may play a part in what you see when you change order. The initial bromide content of the first developer as well as the bromide it frees by its reduction of silver bromide, if it is not washed way, will have some effect on the action of the second developer. You can see what I'm getting at. OTH, it may be advantageous not to rinse between developers for the same reason. It's another variable that must be taken into account when trying to explain what happens or does not happen.
    Gadget Gainer

  5. #25
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    The first time I tried it I did rinse between. I am not enough of a chemist to understand exactly what is going on. The first time I tried it my logic was that Potassium bromide in the first bath was too much of a restrainer and I wanted the high tones to develop. Then in the second bath I made very strong developer and put in Benzotriazole thinking that the warm high tones would be unaffected in the second bath due to all the restraining action while the dark tones would develop with a cold tone. However I think the warming affect of the Potassium bromide is more important than worrying about it's restraining affect. My first developer the second time was much warmer than the first time. I am not sure why I get such warm color out of Glycin when others say they don't. These prints kind of remind me of the prints I got in the 80s using Portriga Rapid which was very warm and processing it in Neutol plus which was very cold tone. That is a good thing.
    Dennis
    When I tried the carbonate test I took a piece of paper and processed it with the lights on in a pretty strong solution of Sodium Carbonate. It did actually take on some tone but it looked more like paper looks if you just leave it out in the light for awhile. I fixed it and the tone mostly went away but again it acted like paper that has just been left sitting out.

  6. #26
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    Why don't you try more traditional split toning - if that's what you're going for...? Try inducing a split vis-a-vis Rudman's published bleach-and-redev method in selenium...? I think it would be easier and a whole lot more controllable. Just a thought.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpurdy View Post
    When I tried the carbonate test I took a piece of paper
    and processed it with the lights on in a pretty strong solution
    of Sodium Carbonate. It did actually take on some tone but it
    looked more like paper looks if you just leave it out in the
    light for awhile.
    Some papers are indicated to contain small amounts
    of developer in the super coats. Arista's EDU Ultra
    Graded RC is the only Graded paper I'm aware of
    which claims developer in the emulsion. Yet it
    does require the usual processing. Dan

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