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  1. #61
    pellicle's Avatar
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    CPorter

    We are a passionate bunch here at APUG. We are not always going to get along and argument is ok.

    bewdy

    I used to do aikido, and there were no hard fellings there as you were helping being helped back up off the tatame

    :-)
    Theory: you understand why it should work but it doesn't
    Practice: it works but you have no idea how
    Here theory and practice meet, things don't work and I don't know why
    Homepages: here Blog: here

  2. #62

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    What a strange thread.
    Sorta reminds me of a debate between creationists and evolutionists.
    Every "master" of every craft has told the apprentices to learn the tools to master the craft.
    Stieglitz, Strand, Weston, Adams, Davis and a hundred others stressed that the greater the knowledge of the tools, the better the output. If a little knowledge is good, isn't more knowledge better? I'm certain Paul Strand had a high percentage of "keepers". This wheel has already been invented. We would all do well to read more history.

  3. #63
    pellicle's Avatar
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    well, since you mention evolutionists, I'll throw in that a perfectly exposed neg is perhaps different depending on what you're wishing to use the neg for.

    I suspect that people might find my 'perfectly exposed neg' unacceptable for their printing or display preferences.

    :-)
    Theory: you understand why it should work but it doesn't
    Practice: it works but you have no idea how
    Here theory and practice meet, things don't work and I don't know why
    Homepages: here Blog: here

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deckled Edge View Post
    What a strange thread.
    Sorta reminds me of a debate between creationists and evolutionists.
    Every "master" of every craft has told the apprentices to learn the tools to master the craft.
    Stieglitz, Strand, Weston, Adams, Davis and a hundred others stressed that the greater the knowledge of the tools, the better the output. If a little knowledge is good, isn't more knowledge better? I'm certain Paul Strand had a high percentage of "keepers". This wheel has already been invented. We would all do well to read more history.


    It is true that one should learn the tools to master the craft. However, there is
    a need to keep a balance between learning the tools for the craft and actually
    practicing the craft with the learned tools.
    otherwise one can soon be making the learning of the tools of a craft the craft
    one practices instead. Nothing wrong with that if that is what one wants.

    For my own part i have found that some times knowledge helps me, other times
    i can feel that i loose spontanity and creativity.

    I do believe that we seldom need a perfect negative, most often an
    adequate negative will be good enough. =)

    So i have a neg and print from late 2003, my first daughter Hilda.
    Film is kb25 shot at 25 and developed in acutol 1+14 for recomended
    time. the print is a straight print, emaks grade 2, dektol 1+3, then kodak
    rapid selenium toner.

    I am not sure what kind of illumination used, but likely used a couple of
    300 Ws flashes bounced on ceiling and wall.
    Probably quite large aperture, a non-still subject, and a resulting non perfect
    sharpness.

    The scan of neg and print is straight scans, no contrast adjustments, no
    black/white-points set, the scan of neg is inverted though. =)
    The scan of print looks contrastier and darker on screen than print in hand.

    Is this neg adequate?

    final note, today i started testing a film on shich i have no reliable data
    concerning speed, development, etc.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails hn.jpg   hp.jpg  

  5. #65
    jd callow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janjohansson View Post
    It is true that one should learn the tools to master the craft. However, there is
    a need to keep a balance between learning the tools for the craft and actually
    practicing the craft with the learned tools.
    otherwise one can soon be making the learning of the tools of a craft the craft
    one practices instead. Nothing wrong with that if that is what one wants.

    This, to my mind, is the distinction. There are photographers who take perfectly exposed, developed and boring images and there are those who take nearly impenetrably bad yet potentially exciting images. One might tell you that institutions corrupt, the other may obsesses about film flatness and measuring the aerial image and they both may be deliriously happy.

    My personal knit is when people label others with being either one of the extremes I mention. There are many creative people (artists) who have excellent skills and technical knowledge and there are many crafts people with a very developed aesthetic. Sadly there are more in the gut of the curve. Creative people of average skill and knowledge and crafts people with mundane visual understanding. I suspect these people are no further from happiness than any others.

    *

  6. #66
    fhovie's Avatar
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    That would be the intuitive and the analytical - room for both of them here but watch out for the analytically trained intuitive.


    Quote Originally Posted by jd callow View Post
    This, to my mind, is the distinction. There are photographers who take perfectly exposed, developed and boring images and there are those who take nearly impenetrably bad yet potentially exciting images. One might tell you that institutions corrupt, the other may obsesses about film flatness and measuring the aerial image and they both may be deliriously happy.

    My personal knit is when people label others with being either one of the extremes I mention. There are many creative people (artists) who have excellent skills and technical knowledge and there are many crafts people with a very developed aesthetic. Sadly there are more in the gut of the curve. Creative people of average skill and knowledge and crafts people with mundane visual understanding. I suspect these people are no further from happiness than any others.
    My photos are always without all that distracting color ...

  7. #67
    CPorter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janjohansson View Post
    It is true that one should learn the tools to master the craft.
    Before I started film testing for speed/dev times I did, naturally, lots of reading up on how best to do it. The day came that I just finally said to myself that it's time for me to see what this is all about. I did not rely on others to prove its validity and worth. I followed the procedures carefully and with great attention to detail. It was not difficult but it did require significant thought. But what was driving me to do it well was these words that I read over and over and my paraphrase of it is this----master the craft and free the creative mind.

    These words cannot be more true. Have I mastered the craft? Let's just say I'm in far greater control than I ever was before and getting more out of my materials than ever before. Is my creative mind free? It's a hell of a lot freer than its ever been. The math adds up.

    Pre-testing = no control to the degree I knew was possible from looking at other fine prints, too much disappointment with failed, poorly executed negatives, too much fussing with difficult negatives, too much waste in the darkroom, too much time devoted to that waste, too few successes, often not knowing why I was successful one time but not another, etc...

    Post-testing = an incredible degree of control, a much higher degree of nicely executed negatives in difficult lighting situations, much easier negatives to print, higher degree of darkroom efficiency, more successful prints, I know why I was successful and I know why I wasn't, I know how to adjust, the craft side of it all is much more fluid in my mind, my enjoyment factor has skyrocketed

    I'm not the most creative photographer, that's for damn sure, and there are folks here on APUG that blow me out of the water in that department.

    The creative part is actually the hardest part and the craft part is not nearly as difficult as I once made it.

    I wish Ray the best of luck.

    Chuck

  8. #68

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    ray

    i have a lot of negatives, that work well for what i do, but i am sure if other people
    saw them they would wonder what the heck i was thinking, they are under or over processed
    or over/ under exposed. i am happy with them though, and i make ok prints with them.
    i have enjoyed reading the 7 pages of responses to your main question, but sadly
    do not have any prints from perfect negatives ( or even perfect prints )
    ..... as they say one person's trash is another person's treasure .

    john

  9. #69
    timbo10ca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPorter View Post
    Before I started film testing for speed/dev times I did, naturally, lots of reading up on how best to do it. The day came that I just finally said to myself that it's time for me to see what this is all about. I did not rely on others to prove its validity and worth. I followed the procedures carefully and with great attention to detail. It was not difficult but it did require significant thought. But what was driving me to do it well was these words that I read over and over and my paraphrase of it is this----master the craft and free the creative mind.

    These words cannot be more true. Have I mastered the craft? Let's just say I'm in far greater control than I ever was before and getting more out of my materials than ever before. Is my creative mind free? It's a hell of a lot freer than its ever been. The math adds up.

    Pre-testing = no control to the degree I knew was possible from looking at other fine prints, too much disappointment with failed, poorly executed negatives, too much fussing with difficult negatives, too much waste in the darkroom, too much time devoted to that waste, too few successes, often not knowing why I was successful one time but not another, etc...

    Post-testing = an incredible degree of control, a much higher degree of nicely executed negatives in difficult lighting situations, much easier negatives to print, higher degree of darkroom efficiency, more successful prints, I know why I was successful and I know why I wasn't, I know how to adjust, the craft side of it all is much more fluid in my mind, my enjoyment factor has skyrocketed

    I'm not the most creative photographer, that's for damn sure, and there are folks here on APUG that blow me out of the water in that department.

    The creative part is actually the hardest part and the craft part is not nearly as difficult as I once made it.

    I wish Ray the best of luck.

    Chuck
    My thoughts exactly.

    Tim
    If only we could pull out our brains and use only our eyes. P. Picasso

    http://www.timbowlesphotography.com

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