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  1. #31
    mjs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Thirsty View Post
    FWIW, my favorite paper of the ones I tried was Agfa MCC 111, which of course was discontinued immediately after I discovered it. The Fomabrom Variant III is very close but seems harder to work with. I also settled on Polygrade V for a more neutral/cold tone, and of course that got axed as well. Lately I've been using Kentmere Fineprint and like it, which with my luck means that Harman will be pulling the plug on it very soon:rolleyes:. I've decided that I simply won't pick any more papers until I use up my leftover Agfa and Polygrade, then see who's still standing.

    Thanks again,
    JT
    Hmm, a disturbing trend. I think that I would greatly appreciate it if you would stay away from Iford Warmtone and some of the Kentmere papers, please. Why don't you try Bergger? I have no intention of using that one...

    Mike

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjs View Post
    The sky is not falling.

    Mike
    Indeed not. Despite the sad demise of Kodak Royal Bromesko Double-Weight Pearl, Johnsons' Unitol and May and Baker's Amfix, I don't find myself heading for the nearest bridge or opening the door of the gas oven.

    Of all the posts on this topic, I think Jason Brunner summed up this harbinger of doom in two well-chosen words - "pretentious ass".

    Steve

  3. #33
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Steve, what do you mean Amfix is still available, it's just May & Baker became part of Champion.

    Ian

  4. #34
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Cadmium beware

    Ron, we may be talking at cross purposes and perhaps it should be a different thread except - Roger Hick's comment that "In some ways, those who bemoan the passing of the ‘good old days’ are, for once, right." talking about the removal of Cadmium from Warm-tone papers.

    We can only go by what Agfa and others paper manufacturers said at the time, but it was EEC (now the EU) directives that forced Agfa to reformulate Record Rapid (Portriga). There are many references to various chloro-bromide papers and the big differences between the current cadmium free versions and the older cadmium loaded versions, these can be found in books and articles as well as on the internet.

    Agfa, Kentmere, Forte and Foma all used Cadmium in their warm-tone Chloro-bromide papers. Ilford didn't make a warm-tone paper for quite a time and by the time of Multigrade Warmtone's introduction the EU Cadmium directive was in place. Ektalure was the last Kodak paper to include cadmium, it was certainly available in the late 1980's and early 90's, I don't know if they eventually took out the cadmium before production ceased in the late 90's..

    A few quotes:

    Tim Rudman: "The Kentona, Art Classic, Tapestry, Luminos emulsions changed when EEC laws restricted the use of cadmium in the manufacturing process. Although these papers were fine art warm tone general papers they had unique properties when Lith printed and then selenium toned. Although the new cadmium-free versions of these papers both print and Lith print very well they are quite different to the old and no longer have the multi-colour potential . . . . . "

    Roger Hicks: "Unfortunately for photographers, though fortunately for the environment, cadmium was dropped as an ingredient, and the best warm-tone papers (such as Forte Polywarmtone) were never the same again. In some ways, those who bemoan the passing of the ‘good old days’ are, for once, right."

    On modern Warm tone papers . . . . . . .and certainly inferior to the Holy Grail of the old formula Cadmium ridden and highly environmentally friendly Agfa Record Rapid. . . . Ridden means on the back of or rather the paper was dependent on it's Cadmium content

    I looked at some European warm tone Chloro-bromide emulsion formulae I have and and the Cadmium halide level varies from about 2% up to 6.5% of the total halides by weight, and is always added at the precipitation stage.

    B&W Warm tone paper - From a 1969 Japanese Patent:
    (A) solution (65° C.) Water 300 ml. Gelatine 10 g. Sodium chloride 9 g. Potassium bromide 8.7 g. Cadmium chloride 0.5 g. Citric acid 0.2 g. (B) solution (about 60° C.) Silver nitrate 25.0 g. Water 250 ml. (C) Gelatin . . . . . . . . . .
    Approx 3% by weight of halides is a particularly significant level of Cadmium.

    The major impact of the Cadmium removal is that the potential image colours are reduced. The newer papers are still excellent they just haven't the flexibility, but there are ways around this.

    I've never looked into why the Cadmium's required but it's doesn't seem to be needed in slow speed chloro-bromide papers designed for Contact printing but it was used in projection speed Chloro-bromide enlarging papers.

    Ian

  5. #35
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    Ian;

    With all due respect to Tim and Roger, they were never (AFAIK) involved in production of emulsions.

    The texts I have differ somewhat from what you say, but unfortunately they involve notes from unpublished course material in emulsion making at EK. Since I don't own this, but only have my notes, I won't publish it. But suffice it to say that there are differences of opinion on this.

    PE

  6. #36
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    I have reviewed my notes on Brovira Black and Warm. They differ in that the warm tone paper used "Bleinitrat" which is Lead Nitrate. There is no Cadmium whatsoever. I have also reviewed Lupex and Azo warmtone. They do NOT use Cadmium salts in any way whatsoever.

    PE

  7. #37
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    You missed my point, Lupex & Azo are Chloride contact papers, and not Chloro-Bromide enlarging speed papers, I know they don't use Cadmium.

    The variants of Brovira were not specialist warmtone papers, I thing Record Rapid and Portriga have Gevaert roots rather than Agfa.

    Roger Hick's and Tim Rudman may not be emulsion chemists but they certainly have by far enough experience to be able to make extremely well informed judgements and comments.

    Ian

  8. #38
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    I agree, but without analytical results on the emulsion do we know they contain Cd?

    In any event, I think that there is enough confusion to remove this to PM status. This is a specialist topic. And since my experience differs from yours, it can be due to formulation. I do know, as I said in the PMs that Cd will not work with AgCl and AgBr, only with AgBr/Cl, and there only to control contrast. That is my experience and education.

    PE

  9. #39

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    One thing that there's no replacement of -- the grain of Kodak 2475 Recording Film. The speed, sure, but not the grain.

    Yeah, Kodachrome 25 is a sad loss, but Ektachrome E100GX is darned nice film, cleaner colors for sure.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    Steve, what do you mean Amfix is still available, it's just May & Baker became part of Champion.

    Ian
    Phew! If I HAD jumped off that bridge, I'd be feeling pretty sick now!

    Steve

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