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  1. #11
    blansky's Avatar
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    My comments too, are anecdotal.

    As a professional portrait photographer, I shot weddings and portraits and printed in color since 1976. When I sold the studio in 1986 I had already encountered problems with print deterioration. Even today I still believe color is not very stable.

    In 1993 I started doing black and white portraits exclusively. I started using RC because I believed that the information from Ilford that RC was stable. Initially I was not what you'd call very anal about some of my printing methods and soon I had prints that were yellowing in as little as 6 months. Not all just a few. I tightened up my proceedures( two bath fix, print washer, etc) and I still would get the same problems. I contacted Ilford on a number of occasions but nobody seemed to have the answers. Every print had been archivally framed as well.

    Finally I just switched to fiber and the problems have gone away. I follow the threads on this and other photography sites and the RC vs FB debate rages on. For me I can't risk the 10% of the prints that were yellowing and I am very happy with the posibilities that FB gives even though it is a little more work.

    My prints are displayed on walls. They are not put in the freezer, in portfolio books or tucked away. I admit that I have still got a lot of RC prints that are fine, it's just that it's not worth it to me to take the chance.

    Just an opinion.

    Michael McBlane

  2. #12
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thilo Schmid

    Ed,
    I wonder about this comment. I didn't find Ilfocolor very stable at least not compared to Signum II/Crystal Archive. If I take a look at the datasheets, Ilfocolor would loose aprox. 0,15 logD in 6 years if exposed to 450 lx/12hr/day. 450 lx is a very low illumination. ~10,000 lx would be a usual daylight illumination (as used in the Fuji Data Sheets where Crystal Archive fades the same amount in 9 Months(!)). I had some Ilfocolor hanging in my staircase (no direct sunlight) besides Signum II and Crystal Archive prints. The Ilfocolor prints did not perform better than the other two. Did you ever compare a print on your office wall to new one from the same neg?
    I've just waded through Ilford's and Agfa's web sites .... I have a head ache.

    I found "fading" information on Ilford's site, but not on Agfa's (other than, "Our paper is awful good when it comes to fading") - and I couldn't navigate to anything worthwhile on Fuji's. Could you help with a few specific addresses here?

    I have a few questions - Ilford decribes their paper as "Ilfocolor E" ... and I'm not sure that is the same stuff that I have cached in my refrigerator. Agfa lists "Signum II", which, again, is not the same as what I had used.

    Probably, there have been, over time, advances in "permanence" qualities.

    I can only say that the Ilfocolor prints I have hanging appear to be "fresh". I really cannot duplicate processing - those in question were processed with Photocolor (early) and JOBO/ Russell, JOBO/Trebla - and JOBO (Tetenal) chemicals - and I have no doubt that the chemical process has a significant effect on color balance and longevity.

    The "Fading" information I was able to glean specified testing by an independant lab" and environmental light exposure of "450 and 500 lux - intermittently - for twelve hours" - as an arbitrary value - more or less equivalent to "hanging on the average wall".
    I just checked my studio walls with my Gossen Ultra Pro - set on "lux" and (10:00 AM - sunny day otuside) I have observed values ranging from 45 (shadier places) to 18,000 lux (sunlight streaming through window) - with an average of 450-500 - so the testing parameters seem to be somewhere near to reality - but -- there is no indication of the spectral composition of the interior light. Interior lighting has little UV - filtered out by "ordinary" glass.

    Interesting to note that Ilford has a number of protecting laminates for applying over the emulsion to increase resistance to fading.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Sukach
    Could you help with a few specific addresses here?
    Ed, you can find the Fuji Crystal Archive Data Sheet here: http://www.fujifilm.com/JSP/fuji/epa...n/AF3-992E.pdf

    Information from Kodak:
    http://www.kodak.com/cluster/global/...240/cis240.pdf



    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Sukach
    I can only say that the Ilfocolor prints I have hanging appear to be "fresh". I really cannot duplicate processing - those in question were processed with Photocolor (early) and JOBO/ Russell, JOBO/Trebla - and JOBO (Tetenal) chemicals - and I have no doubt that the chemical process has a significant effect on color balance and longevity.
    IMO, it is not necessary to have an exact duplicate to judge fading. Any fresh print will be a comparison (if the current material is much better, it is a reason to replace the old one anyway). The problem is that if one looks at a print every day, he may not notice the aging. It is the same with people you see often.

  4. #14
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thilo Schmid
    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Sukach
    Could you help with a few specific addresses here?
    Ed, you can find the Fuji Crystal Archive Data Sheet here: http://www.fujifilm.com/JSP/fuji/epa...n/AF3-992E.pdf

    Information from Kodak:
    http://www.kodak.com/cluster/global/...240/cis240.pdf
    [/quote="Thilo Schmid"]
    IMO, it is not necessary to have an exact duplicate to judge fading. Any fresh print will be a comparison (if the current material is much better, it is a reason to replace the old one anyway). The problem is that if one looks at a print every day, he may not notice the aging. It is the same with people you see often.[/quote]

    Thanks ... I think. The information form Kodak is informative ... but it will take some time for this weary grey matter to digest it all. Interesting to note that my quickie measurements seem to fall into the "office illumination' range.

    Fuji, apparently, bases its longevity on outdoor display, averaging out to 1,000 lux, intermittently.

    Also ... an interesting statemant form Kodak about its "Endura" -- "Will last TWICE as long as *any* other silver - based paper."
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  5. #15

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    The most archival I have seen is FB. I recently re-shot and re-printed an old fiber print from the 30s that was cracked. It cracked before it faded!

    RC isn't bad, but it seems to exhibit other weird phenomenon before fading. It seems to separate (yup, about 7 years old) and lose it's dimensionalism after a few years, this was mostly on Kodak RC Polycontrast papers. My Ilford RC Portfolio papers haven't had a single problem.

    I have some Kodak Supra III prints that have already faded from about 2 years ago. Faded because it was hung on a wall in my living room. Hmmm. My living room is blacked out...no sunlight at all, but with a 25 watt picture light above it at all times. And all of my RA-4's are processed on a roller-transport processor and washed for 3-5 minutes before drying, then properly mounted and framed in aluminum frames...

    I've been printing on Supra Endura. Can't wait to test the longevity of this Kodak "claim"...

    Digital? Junk. I'd rather have a digital file C-printed than inkjet printed, but for some tradeshow displays that I had done on an Epson 10000, the paper has yellowed. Not ink fade, but paper failure??? Epson crap.

  6. #16
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    I revisited the .pdf file from Kodak. There is enogh here to study for a week.

    There are a great deal of "caveats", especially directed at the *extrapolation* of data and the projections of the future performance of the color papers in question. Three, or, at best, four "data points" observed over a time span of one year are extrapolated to infer perfromance as far as 200 years in the future.

    I would pay particular attention to the discussion of "ambient environmental factors". I know that one museum in the Boston area is now preserving photographs, art, and other documents in gas-tight frames filled with argon gas - and there has been ongoing discussion into the effects of acid-freee, Ph balanced, Lignin-free matting .... and quite possibly, the effect of the local Brujo's spells .... and the position of Jupiter and the Plieades ....

    Anyhow ... I *LIKE* Ilfocolor, especially when processed in JOBO/Tetenal chemicals.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  7. #17
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    Doc says... "Digital? Junk. I'd rather have a digital file C-printed than inkjet printed, but for some tradeshow displays that I had done on an Epson 10000, the paper has yellowed. Not ink fade, but paper failure??? Epson crap."

    ----

    Gotta disagree with you a bit there Doc. I've been toying with piezo prints on a dedicated Epson 1280 that are nothing short of stunning. The inks are all carbon based and supposed to be comparable to platinum in their longevity. That however remains to be seen. Unfortunately many of the paper bases offered don't stand up though. I personally use a rag, watercolor paper for the piezos which enhances the platinum feel of the prints. I've had a test image out on my deck in the sun and rain for almost a year! Although the paper has some water stains, the image hasn't faded a bit.

    Although I am a dedicated Silver/Platinum kinda guy, IMO the lure of these piezos can't be denied.

  8. #18
    DKT
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    The Image Permanence Institute has some good publications, and reference materials like the "Preservation Calculator", "Guide to Acetate based Film Storage", "Guide to Color..." etc. But they have a neat interactive display now called, "stored Alive"--you all might find this interesting:

    http://www.rit.edu/~661www1/sub_pages/8contents.htm

    There are alot of good resources online for preservation and accelerated testing topics, but Wilhelm's book is in parts as pdf files now, and there's a conservator's environmental pollution site that has a good research paper on accelerated aging test variables and inkjets materials, as well as examples of peroxide attacks on RC papers.

    http://iaq.dk/

    http://www.wilhelm-research.com/index.html

    general conservation topics:

    http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/

    Here's the NPS Museum Handbook (also check the Conserve-o-grams), go to Part II, appendix K , deals with recommendations for their site photography , note this would be for the sites without photo staff)

    http://www.cr.nps.gov/museum/publications/handbook.html

    NEDCC's "Preservation 101" lesson 7:

    http://www.nedcc.org/p101cs/lesson7.htm



    I'll leave y'all the links--KT

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