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  1. #21
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Well, I just posted in the Vericolor thread a fact I forgot. The new films contain an Iridium salt for much better reciprocity failure characteristics and have much lower sensitivity to solarization. This salt is used at such a low concentration level in the emulsion that it can be ignored for the purposes of pollution. It is also rather harmless compared to the previous mercury and cadmium salts.

    PE

  2. #22
    Harry Lime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pierods View Post
    So the gist of it is that if I buy a roll of 400 tri-x today, I will be able to get the same results as a photographer would in the early 70s, with some darkroom tweaks, right?
    Pretty darn close.

    I have some Tri-X negs that date from the late 1950's or very early 60's. If you compare scans from the vintage negs to modern Tri-X the look is very similar.

    The new version is finer grained, that's for certain, but the shape and character of the grain is very much the same. The overall fingerprint is very, very similar. The vintage negs are a lot thicker and a slightly different shade of gray. I believe the old negs were processed with a developer that dissolved grain and the contrast is a little lower so, it's not an exact comparison, but close.

  3. #23
    dpurdy's Avatar
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    PE, if you were to write a book or article or whatever called something like "Photo Engineering yesterday and today and probably tomorrow" (Everything I knew, know and can guess), print it out and get it bound down at kinko or release it on line for a small fee, I would be interested in it.
    Dennis

  4. #24
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Dennis;

    Some of this was being posted as the Photo Engineering threads in Emulsion Making and Coating. Every time I start it kind of falters due to lack of interest. This is such specialized work that few are interested. So, someday the details will be gone, and just the basic formulas will be around such as I have posted or intend to include in the book. The actual details of the stuff you ask are so "way out there" that only a couple of people are interested.

    When I started at EK, they gave us course after course in photochemistry, emulsion chemistry, system engineering and etc. to get to be good design engineers, and to give us a history of all of this stuff. The parts on B&W films were given in discussions with Dick Henn (Inventor of many of the developers and designer of some of the films) and Grant Haist who wrote his great 2 volume book. I've talked to and known Dick, Bill Lee (now both deceaased), Grant and many others who would be far better qualitifed to discuss things here but those still living chose to ignore APUG or merely lurk.

    Thanks though.

    PE

  5. #25

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    [QUOTE=pierods;611755]Could you elaborate on how the film has changed?

    What I'm trying to achieve is the same look as tri-x from the early '70s.

    So if we are talking about incremental improvements, ok, but if we're talking about a totally different look, then I would like to know what film approaches that look.

    thanks

    I think that Forma Pan comes closest in the look of Trx from the 70s, perhaps a little more gain.

  6. #26
    David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    Fortepan 400, which was made in an ex-Kodak plant, had a look much like Tri-X with more controlled highlights. I doubt it was the exact Kodak formula of the 1960s (though I've seen that claim made), because I'm fairly sure that they would have had to make changes with changes in the price of silver over the years and general shortages in Eastern Europe, but it was of that family.
    flickr--http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/
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  7. #27
    PhotoJim's Avatar
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    This might seem like a silly response, but...

    If you want the look of 1970s Tri-X, Paul, perhaps simply cropping new Tri-X slightly will work.

    If grain is finer and the image is sharper, slight cropping will reduce sharpness and increase grain. My guess is that gradation has improved along with these improvements, and will be commensurately reduced with cropping. If so, cropping (or alternatively using a slightly smaller format - e.g. half frame) might give you the equivalent of using 1970s film.

    I realize that that will change perspective and such as well, but it might be the easiest answer.
    Jim MacKenzie - Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

    A bunch of Nikons; Feds, Zorkis and a Kiev; Pentax 67-II (inherited from my deceased father-in-law); Bronica SQ-A; and a nice Shen Hao 4x5 field camera with 3 decent lenses that needs to be taken outside more. Oh, and as of mid-2012, one of those bodies we don't talk about here.

    Favourite film: do I need to pick only one?

  8. #28
    dpurdy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Dennis;

    Some of this was being posted as the Photo Engineering threads in Emulsion Making and Coating. Every time I start it kind of falters due to lack of interest. This is such specialized work that few are interested. So, someday the details will be gone, and just the basic formulas will be around such as I have posted or intend to include in the book. The actual details of the stuff you ask are so "way out there" that only a couple of people are interested.

    When I started at EK, they gave us course after course in photochemistry, emulsion chemistry, system engineering and etc. to get to be good design engineers, and to give us a history of all of this stuff. The parts on B&W films were given in discussions with Dick Henn (Inventor of many of the developers and designer of some of the films) and Grant Haist who wrote his great 2 volume book. I've talked to and known Dick, Bill Lee (now both deceaased), Grant and many others who would be far better qualitifed to discuss things here but those still living chose to ignore APUG or merely lurk.

    Thanks though.

    PE
    PE, my suggestion was intended to be a little bit humorous as I am sure that book would take you several years and be a few thousand pages long and I don't know that Kinko could actually bind it. And I am guessing a "small fee" wouldn't quite cover it.
    Dennis

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhotoJim View Post
    This might seem like a silly response, but...

    If you want the look of 1970s Tri-X, Paul, perhaps simply cropping new Tri-X slightly will work.

    If grain is finer and the image is sharper, slight cropping will reduce sharpness and increase grain. My guess is that gradation has improved along with these improvements, and will be commensurately reduced with cropping. If so, cropping (or alternatively using a slightly smaller format - e.g. half frame) might give you the equivalent of using 1970s film.

    I realize that that will change perspective and such as well, but it might be the easiest answer.
    I should have mentioned that my thoughts apply only to Formapan 400 in 35mm, the 120 and large format FormaPan seems to be very much differnt, has that blue film base. But for that classic 35mm old TriX Forma Pan 400 in 35 is very inexpensive from Freestyle sold under house brand.

  10. #30
    Michel Hardy-Vallée's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhotoJim View Post
    Both are good. I mix my D-76 from scratch, but when I bought it, I bought Ilford's ID-11 in preference because it is sold in Canada in metric measurements, and Kodak sells D-76 here in US quart and gallon packages.
    You should move to Québec, because I just bought a 1L packet of D-76...
    Using film since before it was hip.


    "One of the most singular characters of the hyposulphites, is the property their solutions possess of dissolving muriate of silver and retaining it in considerable quantity in permanent solution" — Sir John Frederick William Herschel, "On the Hyposulphurous Acid and its Compounds." The Edinburgh Philosophical Journal, Vol. 1 (8 Jan. 1819): 8-29. p. 11

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