Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 70,593   Posts: 1,546,100   Online: 904
      
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 40
  1. #1
    pierods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    311

    acutance vs grain, I don't understand

    Hello,

    I was trying to sort out options in choosing film developers, there are so many out there, multiplied by the number of films, it's bewildering...

    I know what grain is. I shot a few rolls of delta 3200, I've seen it.

    Acutance, in my understanding, is the ability of a film to draw un-jagged lines and contours.

    In my understanding, for example, delta 100 draws much sharper lines than hp5.

    I happened to read an article form silvergrain.org that said,

    1. "use fine grain developers for fast films"
    2. "use acutance developers for 100 speed tabular films and panf plus"

    But don't sharp images need fine grain AND acutance? Also, PANF and delta have got very fine grain, so they already draw sharp lines, right?

    To add to the confusion, Kodak says that XTOL has got acutance AND grain, so why are we not closing down this forum and everybody uses XTOL?

    I need help...

    piero
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails f002_0072hc.gif  

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Shooter
    Plastic Cameras
    Posts
    1,028
    All film has microscopic grain. It is the speed of the film combined with the developer which affects how the actual grain forms into grain clumps and it is the grain clumps that you see, not the grain. Slow film films tend not to clump so much. Faster films clump more. Fine grain developers tend not to clump grain so much. High activity developers clump grain more.
    Some people make the big mistake of judging how the print will look by looking at the grain in the negative. They tend to like to see an etched look in their negatives. Personally I think that makes the print look too harsh. But that is a subjective consideration so is infact a control for you to use.
    Acutance is the way in which the grain forms the transition from light to dark or dark to light areas. Some film developer combinations make this more pronounced than others. Again this a control for you to use. People worry that a print must have fine grain and good acutance for it to be a good print. But that means they are dictating what defines a good print which is pure nonsense. If you want a print with large grain and poor acutance because it suits your aesthetic, then who is to say that you are wrong.
    People get way to hung up on grain and acutance, especially when they are starting out. Just go with one film and a standard developer and learn it. Then later when you are proficient, experiment with same film and different developers, and then different film and original developer and then other developers. That way you get to learn the different look of the actual print and don't worry about how the neg looks. Follow your instincts and not other peoples and that way you won't turn out to be a clone.

  3. #3
    John Bragg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Penwithick, Cornwall, U.K.
    Shooter
    35mm RF
    Posts
    345
    Images
    9
    Hi, Piero.

    Many so called fine grain developers use silver solvents to promote the appearance of fine grain. This hides the true granularity of the film and looses some of the sharpness in the name of smooth fine grain. A true accutance developer contains little or no solvent and will by its nature show more of the true grain of the film with none of this chemical fuzzing. Beutlers formula and Rodinal are true accutance developers and used correctly will provide the highest accutance and honest grain.
    Most developers aim for a balance of properties but if you want the highest accutance, then grain will be more pronounced, that is fact. Finest grain is usually at the cost of a loss in perceived sharpness. To get the best of all worlds try the slowest film in something like Rodinal.

    Regards, John.

  4. #4
    Sino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Chania, Greece
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    166
    Images
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by rob champagne View Post
    Acutance is the way in which the grain forms the transition from light to dark or dark to light areas. Some film developer combinations make this more pronounced than others.
    Rob, John, does that mean that higher acutance [sharpness] shows less tones in the transition from dark to light in a detail? Can we have that in a picture as an example?

    -Sino.
    Close your eyes to see. This will take a while.

  5. #5
    pierods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    311
    Yes, could we see examples?

  6. #6
    arigram's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Crete, Greece
    Shooter
    Medium Format
    Posts
    5,474
    Images
    69
    From what I understand it, acutance is how fluffly or sharp the grain is.
    Which makes the grain and the image edges more or less pronounced.
    aristotelis grammatikakis
    www.arigram.gr
    Real photographs, created in camera, 100% organic,
    no digital additives and shit




  7. #7

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Shooter
    Plastic Cameras
    Posts
    1,028
    Quote Originally Posted by pierods View Post
    Yes, could we see examples?
    No. I don't use actuance developers.

  8. #8
    John Bragg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Penwithick, Cornwall, U.K.
    Shooter
    35mm RF
    Posts
    345
    Images
    9

    Example

    Quote Originally Posted by pierods View Post
    Yes, could we see examples?
    Heres one. Neopan 400 @ Ei200 in Rodinal.

    http://www.rangefinderforum.com/phot...hp?photo=82373

    Regards, John.
    Last edited by John Bragg; 04-10-2008 at 06:00 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Near Tavistock, Devon, on the edge of Dartmoor.
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    1,029
    Quote Originally Posted by rob champagne View Post
    Then later when you are proficient, experiment with same film and different developers, and then different film and original developer and then other developers. That way you get to learn the different look of the actual print and don't worry about how the neg looks. Follow your instincts and not other peoples and that way you won't turn out to be a clone.
    Of course, much also depends on your enlarging ambitions!

    Steve

  10. #10
    Dan Henderson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Blue Ridge, Virginia, USA
    Shooter
    4x5 Format
    Posts
    1,891
    Images
    241
    As Rob said, whether to subdue or enhance the appearance of grain, or whether to produce high acutance negatives with very sharp light/dark transitions is one of the controls the photographer has at his disposal. I happen to really like high acutance, but do not appreciate seeing lots of grain except under certain circumstances. Ilford FP4 film in DiXactol produces these kinds of negatives for me. The slow film has nice, fine grain which is further masked by the staining action of the developer, which does not dissolve the edges off of the grain, thereby increasing apparent sharpness, and developing with minimum agitation produces the edge effects that I enjoy.


    web site: Dan Henderson, Photographer.com

    blog: https://danhendersonphotographer.wordpress.com/

    I am not anti-digital. I am pro-film.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast


 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin