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  1. #41
    df cardwell's Avatar
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    Old Super 12

    1. Glycin is extremely long lived in solution. If the solution is clear (clear-ish) try it. Or not. The metol will die long before the glycin.

    2. In the OLD days, there was a different aesthetic, and a different relationship to the technology. SO, early Strobe shooters got flat results from the flash, and found they had to ADD development to increase the contrast. An old developer label that says GOOD FOR STROBE is promising TO ADD CONTRAST !

    Long Scale might mean Compensating. Might not. They are photo phrases which are thrown around with no idea what they mean. And they often mean the opposite today of what they meant in 1960.

    Compensation USED to mean that development was done in a BIG tank, with reduced agitation, allowing the shadows to develop to their fullest while the highlights are held back by bromide released during development.

    But that's was in the 1930s.

    People remembered the WORD, and associated it with developers like Rodinal, and thought Rodinal = Compensation.

    They saw the higher than normal diution recommended for Rodinal as a Compensating developer, and because they didn't KNOW how the film was being agitated, associated the concept of higher dilution = Compensation. It doesn't, of course, and never did.

    The reason higher than normal dilutions were often desired for compensation was to increase the agitation cycles, for tighter control. People are usually surprised that 1:100 Rodinal is capable of high densities.

    But this is a digression.

    Read the Lowe,or earlier posts in the thread. Edwal 12 was designed to give a higher contrast than we consider normal today, and it was designed for low contrast shooting conditions.

    If you buy off the shelf E-12, it will be a N+2 developer, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO ! If you mix it yourself, and use 2 to 2 1/2 grams of glycin, it will be a very fine N+1 developer.
    "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid,
    and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"

    -Bertrand Russell

  2. #42
    sun of sand's Avatar
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    Thanks, Cardwell. I read the thread and this is what was confusing me.
    I'm straightened out a bit now.

    I'll check the stuff out sometime soon since it's easy enough to just pour some out.
    Useable for sheet films? Seems popular for 35mm

  3. #43
    df cardwell's Avatar
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    Buried deep in the dust of my memory was WHY the early electronic flash shooters needed extra contrast, and I couldn't put my finger on the WHY. Simply put, today's strobes use low voltage and high capacitance. THEN, high voltage, low capacitance. A big flash might have had the output of a 283, but had a duration so FAST, the exposure was into the high range of film's reciprocity failure. So, the nature of electronic flash was completely outside our experience,
    and a developer which added contrast was a good thing.

    Today, it wouldn't be a silly thing to look for a little lower contrast ....
    "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid,
    and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"

    -Bertrand Russell

  4. #44
    df cardwell's Avatar
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    In his Film Cookbook, Bill Troop talked about the evolution of D-25 to Microdol, to Microdol-X.
    As films evolved, the basic developer had to change to deal with dichroic fog.

    As I've worked with Edwal -12, I've never had a problem with dichroic fog, until I tried it with my stash of Royal Pan.
    ( A few years ago I bought a LOT of the stuff ). I haven't had any difficulty with current films ! And Royal Pan ( long out of date ) works fine with HC-110, Polydol, Rodinal, D-76, etc.

    It's possible E-12 didn't work well with some '50s films, and was passed by. Today's film, though, it SEEMS dandyfine.

    Experience ???
    "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid,
    and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"

    -Bertrand Russell

  5. #45

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    It's possible E-12 didn't work well with some '50s films, and was passed by. Today's film, though, it SEEMS dandyfine.

    Experience ???[/QUOTE]

    My oldest film is Plus X and Pan F from the 70s, the Pan F works well, I have not souped any of the Plus X. My guess is that Ekef use emulsion formulas that date back to the 50s. I have some Ekef 25 in 35mm and I have been thinking about shooting and developing in Edwal 12, but given the high contrast and how easy it is to blow out the hightlights with all of the Ekef films I have some doubts. Some Chinese films are also rumored to be based on technology from the 40 and 50s, I have JC Pro 100 4X5 which was rumored to be Chinese, left but I have not tired it with Edal 12, has a very nice look in DK50.

  6. #46
    df cardwell's Avatar
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    DK 50, another great developer, ill-used by recent history
    "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid,
    and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"

    -Bertrand Russell

  7. #47

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    DK-50

    Quote Originally Posted by df cardwell View Post
    DK 50, another great developer, ill-used by recent history
    Now that you mention it, I've been wondering as of late about it and the one or two other equal weight Metol-Hydroquinone developers. D-96 for B&W movie processing is one.

    This is way too much Metol for maximum activity, so that's not the gimmick (about 1:4 is.) DK-50R is a more normal ratio. Does that mean the HQ is used up regenerating the Metol more?

    DK-50 is still available from Kodak. IIRC, they state that the negatives might have a slightly brown stain. ???

    Jus' wunnering....

  8. #48
    c6h6o3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim appleyard View Post
    In fact, I had rotten luck with three devs I made with PPD; Edwal 12, one of the Sease formulas and 777.
    How did you make 777? The formula is proprietary and the owner refuses to disclose it.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by c6h6o3 View Post
    How did you make 777? The formula is proprietary and the owner refuses to disclose it.

    I'll have to check my notes, but I think it's:
    7g of metol
    7g of catechol
    7g of glycin
    H2O to 1 liter

    Ladies & gents, please correct me if I'm wrong and you beat me to my notes.

    Now, there are lots of rumors about this dev; formula, working properties, etc., but it's generally accepted that this is the formula. The current sllers of the commercial variety may or may not add some things to it.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Verizzo View Post
    Now that you mention it, I've been wondering as of late about it and the one or two other equal weight Metol-Hydroquinone developers. D-96 for B&W movie processing is one.

    This is way too much Metol for maximum activity, so that's not the gimmick (about 1:4 is.) DK-50R is a more normal ratio. Does that mean the HQ is used up regenerating the Metol more?

    DK-50 is still available from Kodak. IIRC, they state that the negatives might have a slightly brown stain. ???

    Jus' wunnering....
    I found that DK 50 to be very clean working, never a stain. I use DK 50 1:1, in tank with film holders or tray, for most of my 4X5, PF4, HP5, and Forma 200, great tones, holds shadow details well, I am able shoot at full film speed with short development times. PF sells a DK 50 in quart sizes, but I still have 5 or 6 gallon size cans and packets.

    Paul

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