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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by c6h6o3 View Post
    How did you make 777? The formula is proprietary and the owner refuses to disclose it.

    OK, here's the homebrew version witht the correct stuff: (ignore last post)

    Distilled water @ 125F 665cc
    Metol 7g
    Sodium sulfite 70 g
    PPD 7g
    Glycin 7g
    Distilled water (cold) to make 1 liter

    For more info:http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Harvey/harvey.html

    Best of luck to anyone using a PPD dev.

  2. #52
    df cardwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim appleyard View Post
    OK, here's the homebrew version witht the correct stuff...
    Jim, if you weigh out BPI 777, and weigh out the the formula you posted, they are VERY different.

    If you compare the appearance of the two solutions, they are completely different.

    If you compare the results, they are TOTALLY different.

    They are totally different developers. And if you read what Harvey wrote about his developer, you'd see how you can't make ANY case for GERMAIN'S developer being 777. Even taking De Van's conversation about 777 vs Edwal 12, the difference in performance was recognized. What wasn't recognized was that Germains WAS Edwal 12.

    The proposition that 777 was Germain's was nothing more an an idle, wild *ssed, speculation, unsupportable by performance. Test the two films side by side. Germains is within the performance range that Lowe offered for Edwal 12. It gives full speed. It gives a very contrasty image with PPD activated glycin.

    777 has a different pH. As Harvey described it loses a full stop to D76. E-12 does not. It has a gentle curve, although it can give great density. The grain stucture is much different, 777 is like D76. Edwal 12 is like micro Rodinal. They are completely different.
    "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid,
    and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"

    -Bertrand Russell

  3. #53
    sun of sand's Avatar
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    Tried out the E12 and it looks great -to my eyes
    The solution was dark red with some having evaporated out leaving a black, easily wiped, substance on the upper most part of the bottle
    figured it would be toast but tried it out

    4x5 Tri-X 7 seconds -reciprocity figured in- at F45 An EI of about 300, I guess.
    Developed in E12 at about 66 degrees or so for 14 minutes, slight tray agitation
    Looked pretty damn good. little dense but not bad at all
    Straight contact print on RC for maximum black in dektol
    SHARP.
    I did a comparison with Xtol and I'm thinking I somehow bumped the camera because the Xtol is nowhere near as sharp as the E12. I have to repeat the Xtol test tonight to be sure.

    The look seems different
    highlights not blown out but dull, rainy day
    SHARP. I don't believe any Xtol or D76 shot I've taken with mint Sironar-N/Grandagons is close to being as sharp
    It looks fantastic, to my eyes. I'm actually respecting the lens more!
    -a neglected and perfectly mint 210 JML-
    It has to be the E12 to some degree

    Tonality seems nicer in a way. nice transitions and not "chunky/crunchy" or "muddy" like I see Xtol having in highlights and shadows
    Just looks cleaner and more subtle
    But I don't have enough experience yet to describe well

    I believe I read somewhere that E12 has a look more like a pyro developer
    whatever


    No stain on the negative but less of the purple base washed off so maybe there is and I didn't see it for what it was

    I'm going to try Rodinal one day for sure now and see what it does in terms of sharpness.

    "Micro Rodinal" That might be it. Seems Super. Super 12.

  4. #54
    sun of sand's Avatar
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    I'm wondering about the red coloring, though. I'm thinking it's due to the PPD
    haircolor goes this same sort of red when it sits around unused for a few days and PPD is a main ingredient in it

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by sun of sand View Post
    I'm wondering about the red coloring, though. I'm thinking it's due to the PPD
    haircolor goes this same sort of red when it sits around unused for a few days and PPD is a main ingredient in it
    The color is normal, but E 12 will turn a darker color with age and use. I filter out the sludge that will form. You may need to extend your development time somewhat with seasoning. I kept my last tank going for 2 years and it turned almost black, just keep adding 100cc for each roll of 35mm 36 ex. E 12does produce a dense negative, but it prints well. You may not have joseled your camera, I think E12 is sharper than Xtol.

  6. #56
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    How could this be going on for so long and I just find it now? Very interesting thread.

    For some reason, don't quite know why, I was called to test Eastman XX cine film in Germain. The results are rather shocking. I remember reading Ansel Adams' description of Paul Strand's negatives, how brilliant they looked and how they changed his life. At this point, I sort of doubt that this is going to change my life that much, but it may change my process. The region where I live is famous for not just overcast, but rain. N+1 is pretty normal around here! I went to the beach and photographed some pebbles. Each pebble is neatly outlined with clear shadow, described precisely both in its edges and its internal detail. The shadows joined form a sort of a net holding the stones together. I have never seen negatives quite like this. I don't know whether this is comprehensible to you, but that's how it occurred to me to describe it.

    So here's some test data using a wall facing north skylights as a target. Exposing at 200 ISO, it could be that the film could be equal to or even a bit faster than rated. Interesting. I'm not used to that.

    8.5 minutes, zone 1=0.09, 2=0.17, 3=0.27, 4=0.44, 5=0.59, 6=0.74, 7=0.95, 8=1.10, 9=1.25, 10=1.42, 11=1.54

    10 minutes, I'm getting 0.03 separation from base at zone 0. I have not subtracted this value from the following data: zone 1=0.13, 2=0.26, 3=0.46, 4=0.66, 5=0.88, 6=1.09, 7=1.29, 8=1.56, 9=1.73, 10=1.88, 11=2.00, 12=2.12.

    The zone 10 and 11 values could be a bit inaccurate (well the whole thing could; my old Leica could use a visit to Sherry Krauter) due to proximity to reciprocity error at the slow speed end, 1/2 and 1 second. The curves have a very fine shape, just the way I like them.

    I like ppd developers. Some of you may have stumbled upon my description of using MCM-100 with kodak's bank robber film, 2475 recording (which I really loved) and its close cousin, the aerial infrared film which I shot in 70mm.

    I have a few bottles of gradol that I inherited from Andy (LK) Andrews, who had done a lot of technical work for Minor White's Zone System Manual. When Andy cleaned out his darkroom, I got all of his chemicals. Some of them, I wish I didn't have. Anyone want ten pounds of potassium chrome alum? The gradol is pretty gray; I have no idea if it works. If anyone wants to try to do a quantitative analysis on it, I'd be happy to supply a sample.

  7. #57

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    I have a few bottles of gradol If anyone wants to try to do a quantitative analysis on it, I'd be happy to supply a sample.[/QUOTE]

    I wish had the ability to do an analysis, I have been trying to figure out how to make E20 for several years.

  8. #58
    df cardwell's Avatar
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    Bowz: thanks for publishing the densities of your Germains's ( when things slow down around here, I'll mix up some Straight 12, and some Germain's variation ) and see how much difference there is... as well as the maximum glycin Lowe recommended, as well as the minimum.

    Your curve has the familiar look to it. As summer moves along, I'll graph some results and we can publish our results, try to assemble a book for the stuff.

    Photography has a number of potential histories. One that interests me is how social context has determined technique. For example, in the years preceding WW2, there was a balance between a 'craft' approach to photography, for instance development by inspection of pyro negatives, and time and temperature development. The first required a skilled and experienced operator and possibly the last name of Weston. The second, an unskilled worker carefully following directions. T&T allowed a study owner to take pictures and talk to clients while the film was souped by an employee, and required a specific protocol while an intuitive approach was well suited to an optimum negative from a particular scene. Both approaches were perfect for the job at hand.

    When the war arrived, there was an overnight need for thousands of photographers who shared the same training, followed the same procedure, and whose results were predictable and interchangeable. Recruits with particular characteristics were sent to Photo School, and learned photography By The Book. After the war, more than a few of these army and navy photographers went into various branches of civilian photography, and followed their military training to make pictures. Every one of these guys used time and temperature and Metol - HQ developers. The pre-war balance between Craft and By The Book was changed. As we work in the post-commercial era of film photography, the virtues of Craft photography are being re-learned, and both dependable formulae, and the crackpot concoctions, are being tried again.

    When I was a kid, and asked my teacher the difference between Edwal 12 and Harvey's 777, since he was 75 in 1968, and had 55 years of experience, he could show me prints, and open up his notebooks and tell me about them.

    But by sharing our current results, we can recreate that notebook and, before we all get much older, accumulate some good data.

    d
    "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid,
    and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"

    -Bertrand Russell

  9. #59
    bowzart's Avatar
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    Don,

    That sounds like a LOT of fun! I'm on! I'll be teaching a class this summer that is very low in enrollment, so I think I can justify using the darkroom at school. Somebody has to keep the lab open, so I can be there a lot. Summers are pretty relaxed anyway. Otherwise, doing it in the truck camper might be a bit challenging!

    And yes, your historical theory checks out with my experience. Lots of guys coming home from the war used the GI Bill to go to photo school. They were each issued a Graphic View, just like, in the army, they'd got their rifles. At least, that is what my stepfather told me. He didn't do that. He was in the camera club. The fellow who ran it was one of the old school.

    It was D76 and Dektol all the way with those guys. He told me that D76 was the standard against which all other developers were measured. He kept his in a wide mouth gallon sized pickle jar with a metal lid, used it replenished. I still prefer it that way when I use it.

    L.

  10. #60

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    When I was in high school in the mid 60s I was mentored by a retired Navy Photo Mate who owned a small shop in Long Beach. Two of my aunts gave me a Retina C, as soon as Vern found out that I was shooting with 35mm he insisted that I get a real camera and took me to an auction at the Navy Base and help me get a well used Speed, he must have pulled some strings as I got for a bid of $20.00. Plus X, D76 stock, Kodibromide in Dectol 1:2. It wasnt until I got to college that I learned that Kodak made differnt films and papers.



 

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