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  1. #11

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    I've never seen this... maybe my safelight is too dim to notice. I also always develop to completion.
    The universe is a haunted house. -Coil
    .

  2. #12
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    Try to eliminate variables so don't try to judge print values under dim amber lighting in the darkroom. Develop the print to completion and then view the print under your "normal" viewing conditions. Base the exposure on those values taking dry down into account.
    Jerold Harter MD

  3. #13
    Vaughn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by df cardwell View Post
    Does it matter ?

    Yes, if you learned to control print tone by observation.
    Like being able to tune a violin by ear instead of a meter.

    Ilford's MG, a great paper otherwise, rewards time and temperature workers.

    If you varied the ratio of exposure and development to fine tune the image,
    that no longer works; it penalizes a traditionally skilled craftsman.
    I understand what you are saying, and it is a valid way of working -- one just has to mentally account for changes in the fix the same way one would have to do to take in account dry-down, future viewing conditions, etc. (since what one sees in the developer tray is nothing like seeing the final print anyway.)

    Vaughn
    At least with LF landscape, a bad day of photography can still be a good day of exercise.

  4. #14
    df cardwell's Avatar
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    The Nail That Stands Up Will Be Hammered Down.

    Perhaps there might be a grudging acceptance that a different point of view is not necessarily grossly inferior.
    (If there has been an official dogma pronouncement, forgive me. I have been away.)

    What one sees in the developer tray might very well be what one sees on the wall.
    It all depends on what you believe, and how you work,
    and how one integrates and manages the variables that make expressive work POSSIBLE.

    With papers like Elite and Portriga, and others before them,
    it was possible to judge highlights and shadows to a nicety,
    and practice Factorial Development as Adams discussed.
    This is not dark magic, but simple craft. See David Vestal.

    If this violates your personal belief system, I apologize.
    Do what works for you. I learned to print over a long period, a long time ago.
    What works for me, works for me.

    Responding to Suzanne's question, I answered honestly.
    Working with Ilford's MGs is different than working with any other papers I have ever worked with.
    There is no choice but to develop to a given time, fix, and turn on the lights.
    It is a lovely paper. It is a pain in the neck.
    I will use it until I run out of it, be thankful I have it,
    and hope that I can lay hands on a sufficient quantity of goodness-knows-what
    that lets me work the way I prefer to work, the way I am capable of working.

    I wonder sometimes how Edward Weston was so massively productive
    without benefit of all the fancy toys we litter the darkroom with today.
    Trusting his eyes, and his judgement. How quaint, how primitive !

    I wonder how a violinist can compensate for a room's humidity
    and changing temperature of his fiddle,
    or the shifting acoustics of a hall,
    and still play with perfect intonation, and great expression.

  5. #15

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    I'm glad you're back Mr. Cardwell. I've missed your beautiful insight.

  6. #16
    SuzanneR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt miller View Post
    I'm glad you're back Mr. Cardwell. I've missed your beautiful insight.
    Me, too, Don!! Welcome back!!

  7. #17
    Eric Rose's Avatar
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    Well Don your not the only one who is driven to distraction by Ilford MG. I thought it was just me LOL.
    www.ericrose.com
    yourbaddog.com

    "civility is not a sign of weakness" JFK

    "The Dude abides" - the Dude

  8. #18
    jd callow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt miller View Post
    I'm glad you're back Mr. Cardwell. I've missed your beautiful insight.
    Yep it really is something -- one of my all time favourites.

    I did what turned out to be a 2 week shoot recently without Don's help I wouldn't have done nearly as good a job -- Jbrunner was also a big help.

    *

  9. #19
    Vaughn's Avatar
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    Printing as a belief system...no wonder you talk in terms of dogma! Believers in a particular dogma do tend to get upset when their particular dogma is questioned. I find your suggestion that those who do not follow your particular dogma (by developing to completion, for example) do not use their eyes and judgement to be typical of a true believer. But as I said, whatever works best for the individual.

    But I do agree that what one sees in the developer can be intuitively used to determine what the print will look like on the wall. I was just stating the obvious that the print in the developer and the print on the wall do not physically look the same.

    I have never used AA's factorial development method. I approached it in another way...seeing the fixed, but wet, print in a "standard" lighting condition to intuitively determine how to make the next print of it. The source of my intuition being years of printing to reach an understanding of how changing the various factors affects the print, including development time. I see this as very similar to your approach in its essence, just not in practice.

    Vaughn
    At least with LF landscape, a bad day of photography can still be a good day of exercise.

  10. #20
    Lopaka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Rose View Post
    Well Don your not the only one who is driven to distraction by Ilford MG. I thought it was just me LOL.
    I second that. Having been away from the darkroom for a number of years, I found I had to learn some new skills, as the materials available behaved much differently from the "old" days. And yes, Don, I also learned to print years ago the way you describe. Welcome back.

    Bob
    "I always take a camera, That way I never have to say 'Gee, look at that - I wish I had a camera'" -Joe Clark, H.B.S.S.

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