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  1. #11
    JBrunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Brown View Post
    Agreed, Jay. I think the point is that one can vary from the "average" if one wants a variation; i.e. more or less contrast, more or less exposure/saturation, a different "look", etc. This gets into the vision thing. What I was referring to is statements such as we have all read here and elsewhere that the "true" speed of Whatever-X+ film is A, rather than the published ISO of B.

    "True"?
    Yes, "True" but only for a specific film/developer/procedure, the variation including many things besides contrast and exposure. (I'll leave color out because IDK) If I say the "true" speed of FP4 is 80, that is only true for my own procedure. I prefer to say something like "my personal speed for FP4 in PMK" which BTW will yield measurably different results than 125 in the same developer for the same time/temp.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Brown View Post
    Sorry. I will strongly disagree with this, Mr. Lindan.
    Yeah, it was pretty disagreeable.

    OTOH:

    I do entirely too much testing myself - for the purposes of designing equipment that - hopefully - reduces the need for testing. Having dug myself into this circular pit I yell to others 'Stay Away - Danger - Testing - Don't do it - This is your mind on testing [break to picture of a tray of sludged dektol with scraps of step wedge prints sticking out]'.

    Dr. Richard Henry's "Controls in Black & White Photography" concludes, after hundreds of pages of test results, that doing like it says in the data sheet can't be improved upon.

    Photography is seeing, reflex and chutzpah. The rest is automation: a machine can do it for you or you can play splish-splash in the dark and do it yourself. The splish-splash can be taught, not so sure about the seeing.
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  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmo View Post
    I had many exhibitions last year, my prints are
    generally quite large at 50x70 centimeters, landscapes,
    street, portraits.

    99% of all my photos are on 35mm film,

    My back says "no, don't carry that weight again..."
    (Mamiya in the Snatch and Bronica GS-1 in the
    Clean and Jerk).
    Quite Large, 50x70 centimeters. That would be 20x28
    inch prints from 35mm. Wall projection printing?

    BTW, Dead Lift those heavier loads. I've a RZ kit
    to tote into the woods and will handle it
    that way. Dan

  4. #14

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    I've seen rank newbies who could barely print make heart stopping images. They often did things they didn't know they shouldn't have, and they probably couldn't replicate their good luck. But they went out there and shot a lot of film and took those chances.

    I've seen people spend untold thousands of dollars on the best equipment and Zone System workshops over many years and they couldn't stop a heart with a spike.

    How many of those great photographs we love were made before light meters and Ansel Adams?

    Have you ever seen a classical musician try to play rock from sheet music? Yeah, that works.

    I think an understanding of Zones and SBR's will increase one's chances of making a better image and more towards what one was expecting. But let's face it, not everyone is a left hemispered technographer. And vice versa.

    Do what is you.

  5. #15
    Ole
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    As a dabbler in both music and darkroom, I feel I have to add my opinions here.

    Sheet music alone doesn't lead to great music, but it makes the process of getting there a lot faster and easier. Being able to play (or sing, as I do) straight from the sheet does not give a great performance, but it makes the practice period much much shorter.

    Same thing in the darkroom: All the testing in the world isn't going to give you a great print, but it makes the subsequent process much faster.

    On the other hand too much reliance on testing (and sheet music) tends to give technically perfect but dead boring prints (and performances).

    As to classical musicians, rock, and sheet music: Listen to Apocalyptica. These guys are trained classical musicians, use sheet music in practice, even use classical instruments...
    -- Ole Tjugen, Luddite Elitist
    Norway

  6. #16

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    There certainly are exceptions to both "sides"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ole View Post
    As a dabbler in both music and darkroom, I feel I have to add my opinions here.

    Sheet music alone doesn't lead to great music, but it makes the process of getting there a lot faster and easier. Being able to play (or sing, as I do) straight from the sheet does not give a great performance, but it makes the practice period much much shorter.

    Same thing in the darkroom: All the testing in the world isn't going to give you a great print, but it makes the subsequent process much faster.

    On the other hand too much reliance on testing (and sheet music) tends to give technically perfect but dead boring prints (and performances).

    As to classical musicians, rock, and sheet music: Listen to Apocalyptica. These guys are trained classical musicians, use sheet music in practice, even use classical instruments...
    As in so much of life, I am talking generally. Many exceptions, including all the newbies who couldn't make a good photo if their lives depended on it.

    Some of the great rock musicians eventually learned to write and read music, especially in order for the backups to know what was expected. But I still find the thought of Jimi Hendrix reading music funny.....

    Ansel Adams, IMHO, was bi-hemisphered but with a decided leaning on the left. A lot of his pictures don't sing in terms of composition or subject, it's the perfect tones and dark room techniques that make you stop and look. I much prefer White, Weston, Helmut Newton. I think that they were all master technicians and had that indefinable "soul."

    But back to thread, find your own road.

  7. #17
    Nicholas Lindan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Verizzo View Post
    Find your own road.
    Agreed. It is the 'Nature Vs Nurture' debate: one needs both - no more can be said with certainty.
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  8. #18
    cmo
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancqu View Post
    Quite Large, 50x70 centimeters. That would be 20x28
    inch prints from 35mm. Wall projection printing?

    BTW, Dead Lift those heavier loads. I've a RZ kit
    to tote into the woods and will handle it
    that way. Dan
    No, I confess I'm a hybrid user, I have an Imacon scanner and an Epson printer, the expensive way of making prints. I was always too ham-handed to make good analog prints, but I stick with my analog cameras and Jobo drums.

  9. #19
    cmo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Verizzo View Post
    Ansel Adams, IMHO, was bi-hemisphered but with a decided leaning on the left. A lot of his pictures don't sing in terms of composition or subject, it's the perfect tones and dark room techniques that make you stop and look. I much prefer White, Weston, Helmut Newton. I think that they were all master technicians and had that indefinable "soul."

    But back to thread, find your own road.
    My own road, yeah. IN fact, I know it, but one more driver training will be helpful.

    HOW do you guys test for the optimum method, ISO setting etc.? Where is the highway to technical success?

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Lindan View Post
    I will disagree. The musician is more likely to lose whatever native talent he had and become just another run-of-the-mill note reader.
    When I was in conservatory, a classmate (and friend...bigtime!!*) was the great jazz musician Yusef Lateef (later Dr. Yusef Lateef.) Why he was there was only for him to understand...I thought his musical imagination blew every theory teacher in the school out of the water. Perhaps he wanted to feel "legitimate" by being able to label things in the theoretical parlance of the time, or just earn a degree for whatever reason. Ultimately he earned a doctorate, and taught "autophysiopsychic" music at our alma mater (he declined use of the term "jazz").

    Seeking knowledge is crucial to both intellectual, and spiritual development.
    Sadly, anti-intellectualism is a prominent feature of current American culture.
    The quoted comment is very unfortunate!

    *On the day Martin Luther King was shot and killed, I was on the cross-town 125th Street bus that runs across Harlem in NYC. I was the only caucasian there. Yusef got on the bus soon after I did, came over to me, hugged me, and called me "brother". I can only wonder what would have happened had he not been so demonstrative and caring. He's one wonderful man!!
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