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  1. #11

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    best method of processing fibre base paper

    Hello Peter:Thanks for your info and where I can find michael and Paula.Wouldn't washing the paper for one hour weaken the paper fibres?.

    Thanks,

    Doug

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddie View Post
    For archival purposes, toning in a dilute Selenium
    Toner is recommended.
    At one time selenium toning was associated with
    greater LE, Life Expectancy. Why it is not now is
    a mystery to me. The little sulfur present years
    ago should be an easy addition to our present
    day ultra pure selenium toners. Dan

  3. #13
    Kevin Kehler's Avatar
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    Sorry to inject another question but I was recently given a bottle of Kodak's Rapid Selinium toner, which looks like it was opened but almost none used and the bottle is at least 2-3 years old. Can this still be used or should it be thrown away?
    Once a photographer is convinced that the camera can lie and that, strictly speaking, the vast majority of photographs are "camera lies," inasmuch as they tell only part of a story or tell it in a distorted form, half the battle is won. Once he has conceded that photography is not a "naturalistic" medium of rendition and that striving for "naturalism" in a photograph is futile, he can turn his attention to using a camera to make more effective pictures.

    Andreas Feininger

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Kehler View Post
    Sorry to inject another question but I was recently given a bottle of Kodak's Rapid Selinium toner, which looks like it was opened but almost none used and the bottle is at least 2-3 years old. Can this still be used or should it be thrown away?
    Selenium toner stock pretty much lasts indefinitely, so it should be OK.

    On the subject of toning for archival protection, the old advice to use a diute toner, so that there is little or no colour change has been discredited. As selenium toner starts toning in the shadows, and works its way up to the highlights, brief toning in dilute toner does not protect the highlights.

    To get protection requires full toning in a stronger solution, which will give colour change in susceptible papers. If colour change is not required, cool or neutral tone papers give less reaction.

    For further info, check out the chapter on archival processing in Tim Rudman's book on toning.
    Steve

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  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by snallan View Post
    As selenium toner starts toning in the shadows, and works
    its way up to the highlights, brief toning in dilute toner does
    not protect the highlights.
    I've real doubts. So, silver in some areas of the print are
    immune to the presence of the selenium atom. And what
    could be the reason for that?

    I prefer to believe that the highlight silver IS 'toned'
    along with the rest of the print's silver. Due to the very
    fine character of that highlight silver the 'toning' is less
    noticeable. Dan

  6. #16

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    toning

    it is fairly obvious that "new" papers tone quite less than the plder ones used to...I do not have an answer for that but that is how it seems to me...azo type papers do not experience a shift as far as my eye can tell...I just tone for permanence anyway...
    Best, Peter

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by dancqu View Post
    I've real doubts. So, silver in some areas of the print are
    immune to the presence of the selenium atom. And what
    could be the reason for that?

    I prefer to believe that the highlight silver IS 'toned'
    along with the rest of the print's silver. Due to the very
    fine character of that highlight silver the 'toning' is less
    noticeable. Dan
    This is fairly easy to test. Take a few prints, and selenium tone for a variety of times, then bleach with a standard Ferri/Br bleach.

    Here are a couple of examples I have just tried. These are using two test prints from a previous session, photographed with one of those computerised imagey things with a lens on the front.

    I tend to use a moderately strong toner, and in this case it was selenium stock (Fotospeed), diluted 1+9. Bleach was 2.5% ferri (10% stock, diluted 1+3), with approx 8g of potassium bromide added to 800ml of working solution. The prints were made on Ilford MGIV RC, developed in Beer's #5.

    The first image is the untoned print; the second is the straight toned print (in this case 3 minutes in the toner described); the third was toned for one minute, then bleached for ten minutes; and the fourth was toned for three minutes, and bleached for ten minutes.

    As you can see, the one minute toned print has lost pretty much all of the highlight detail, and a lot of the shadow silver has been removed as well. With selenium toning for three minutes, the shadows and the midtones are holding up much better, but the highlights have still gone. I think given five to six minutes in this concentration of selenium toner, even the highlights would be immune to the bleaching.

    So, whatever the mechanism underlying the action of selenium toner, the highlights definitely appear to tone last.

    (Apologies for some of the wierd reflections on some of the shots! )
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails untoned.jpg   toned.jpg   toned_1min_bleached.jpg   toned_3min_bleached.jpg  
    Steve

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  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by snallan View Post
    So, whatever the mechanism underlying the
    action of selenium toner, the highlights definitely
    appear to tone last.
    Or bleach first? I think yours may be a special case
    of a general. The general be the susceptible nature
    of very fine particles, even colloidal. Highlight areas
    are little visible at start. They can be lost
    in the fixer. Dan

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by dancqu View Post
    Or bleach first? I think yours may be a special case
    of a general. The general be the susceptible nature
    of very fine particles, even colloidal. Highlight areas
    are little visible at start. They can be lost
    in the fixer. Dan
    Maybe so. Tim would be the guy to ask, he could probably point you at the appropriate literature about selenium and archival toning.

    Though if the finest particles were first to react with the selenium to form the selenide, then I think the highlights would remain when attacked with the ferri bleach. I don't think ferri is sufficiently agressive to attack the selenide. Peroxides, or dichromate bleaches, yes, but not the ferri.

    In the discussion in his book on toning, Tim mentions that studies show that the larger grains of silver in the shadows are not converted to the selenide, and that shadow toning starts with the smaller grains of silver. That would suggest that the highlights should be toned first. The fact that it is reported that they are toned more slowly than the shadows, and midtones, suggests that the actual mechanism of selenium toning is far more complex than a straight forward fluid phase chemical reaction.
    Last edited by snallan; 09-17-2008 at 06:58 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    Steve

    "You don't need eyes to see, you need vision" - Maxi Jazz

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  10. #20
    jeroldharter's Avatar
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    You don't sound experienced with fiber based paper processing. Doing 50 prints in one weekend is quite a bit. Are you doing 50 copies of the same print, or 50 individual prints? If it is the latter, you are very productive.

    If it is 50 prints of the same subject, my advice is:

    Find the printing sequence with dodges and burns to generate your desired final print. Make notes.

    Then expose each sheet, one after another, and store the exposed paper in a paper safe.

    Then use single tray processing (several threads on that in APUG) and batch process 8 prints at a time, interleaving them in the tray full of solution. Rinse after wash, and after fix, after toning.

    Wash for the appropriate time.

    You will need a lot of space to dry 50 prints. I place the wet prints back to back and clip them to a clothesline to dry. I don't pat dry or squeegee them.
    You could easily do 6 batches of 8 (and one with 9) and finish in a day.

    That is a lot of throughput so I would change out the chemistry to avoid exhaustion. For all that work, it is not worth skimping on $1 worth of fixer.
    Jerold Harter MD

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