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  1. #1

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    Hello all,

    Is it possible to straight from the 2nd fix bath into selenium toner when using rapid fix? I have read in some places (none reputable) that this is only possible by using Ansel Adams' 'plain fixer' formula as there is something in rapid fix that will cause staining on the print from the selenium.

  2. #2

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    Never heard that. I do know that RC paper can stain at the edges from being in the toner too long.

    The point of toning is to convert the metallic silver to silver selenide (or some other compound depending on the toner). So you want ALL excess silver GONE. That means you fix, hypo, and wash. You want all that undeveloped silver gone since it can stain when toned.

    Or so I understand it. I could be wrong.
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  3. #3
    DKT
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    I do that for fiber based paper--use 2 fix baths at Kodak paper strength (non Ilford sequence)--kodak rapid fix A, no hardener. Go from the second straight into selenium mixed with permawash. Some papers do stain though--in which case I've used a reg. plain hypo bath for the second fix,or mixed in Kodalk or sodium metarborate.....for RC, I do a 2-4 minute wash and then tone follow with a 5 minute final wash. BTW--this is how I do it mostly now, and use machine processors as well--turn off the dryers, go to a prewet, tone, then wash.

    the secret is to not have dry patches or areas without fix on them when the print goes into the selenium toner--otherwise, staining may happen.....I usually just barely drain the print & then go into the toner.....

    KT

  4. #4

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    The potential problem (if it exists at all) is that rapid fix is ammonium thiosulfate based and Kodak selenium toner incorporates sodium thiosulfate (hypo) in it's formulation. I am not sure the effect of mixing ammonium and sodium thiosulfate.

    I don't use rapid fix other then in film processing. I use hypo as both my first and second paper fixers. I have found that to wash or rinse between the second fix bath and toner is begging for staining. So I go directly from my second fixing bath to the toner. From the toner I go to HCA and from there to the archival washer.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by dnmilikan
    I have found that to wash or rinse between the second fix bath and toner is begging for staining. So I go directly from my second fixing bath to the toner.
    At the moment I fix in rapid fix for the first bath, rinse then give a 2nd fix in rapid fix, and give it a good rinse before going into the toner. Have had no staining problems, yet.

    But would it be best if I went over to trying just sodium thiosulate fixers as my fix instead of rapid fix? It would save a lot of time if I went straight from the 2nd fix to the toner.

  6. #6

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    To confirm what Robert wrote, I've read on Kodak's website (sorry, don't recall the URL) a recommendation to use a generous border for RC prints to be selenium toned because of the risk of infiltration between the layers, causing staining.
    Three degrees of separation from Kevin Bacon.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Budd
    Hello all,

    Is it possible to straight from the 2nd fix bath into selenium toner when using rapid fix? I have read in some places (none reputable) that this is only possible by using Ansel Adams' 'plain fixer' formula as there is something in rapid fix that will cause staining on the print from the selenium.
    The once fabulous Kodak “Elite” paper was notorious for orange stains in selenium baths if not properly fixed and washed. I used Ansel’s 1:9 mix with HCA for a while with fair results. I took the prints directly from the fixer with a short rinse in running tap water, to the toner. Seemed to work….

    It turns out that HCA has a quite short life compared to the selenium when used this way, which is why I no longer do this. I mix the selenium 1:9 with distilled water and employ a separate HCA bath between fixing and toning. So far I have experienced no staining with fiber or RC prints.

    While on the subject of selenium toning particularly, I sill find the results magical when the prints begin to acquire that 3-D appearance that is hard to describe. But the main reason I tone s to get rid of a greenish cast all my prints seem to exhibit developed in Dektol 1:3. Any thoughts on this, anyone?

    Truly, dr bob.

  8. #8
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    I use rapid fixer and wash for five minutes before selenuim toning and have no staining. I've been reading on photonet that lots of people just go straight from rapid fix to toner with no problems.

    DKT don't you waste the selenium by using it mixed with permawash. I save my selenuim to use over and over, but once it's been mixed with permawash it has to be discarded or so I've heard.

    Michael MCBlane

  9. #9

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    Be careful what you read on photo.net, Michael. Buncha yay-hoos over there, I hear tell. :whistle:
    Three degrees of separation from Kevin Bacon.

  10. #10
    DKT
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    Quote Originally Posted by blansky
    IDKT don't you waste the selenium by using it mixed with permawash. I save my selenuim to use over and over, but once it's been mixed with permawash it has to be discarded or so I've heard.

    Michael MCBlane
    yep, that's how it's usually done. strictly one-shot. could be considered wasteful? I dunno...it's all pretty cheap in the scheme of things. I do reuse the selenium toner (mixed 1:4 or 1:9) for RC paper..just reg. old toner though. For me--I print so much more RC than anything now--been months since I touched a sheet of fiber based paper, yet I made over 500 8x10 RC prints in the past week and a half.

    I tone probably 50% of the RC prints....a quart of toner is about 20 bucks street price, but at work--we get this stuff much, cheaper....sometimes the hazmat fees for shipping are more than the chemistry costs (E6 is this way believe it or not). Permawash is dirt cheap too, and a piece of cake to mix up & use.

    I'm not fiber-based printing everyday anymore--I do use rc paper almost every day though....I'll use the selenium toner for that as long as it keeps on working with decent times. I sometimes tone sheet film and use a tank with a floating lid to store that inline with the processing tanks....fiber prints are kinda special for me these days--I do them to give as presents or to hang on my walls at home. I don't nickel & dime the costs too much....

    KT

    my opinions only.

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