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  1. #11

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    Hi,

    It's nice to have some more info on the situation.

    In an *average* small bar or club that I shoot, I can get EV 4 or thereabouts on a performer's face. Remember the word *average*! heh heh. I am only speaking from my experience, which is quite a lot with live music in small local venues...but every place is different. Nicely lit places are several stops brighter, and crummily lit places are several stops slower, such as EV 1 or 2, or EV nothing if it is truly dark (what I like to call "no light shooting" instead of "low light shooting"). The average of EV 4 means to make that face middle grey (a perfectly workable value for a face given that you can push that up a bit in development, and also print it up and/or intensify), you must expose 11 stops from sunny 16, which would be '1000 at f/16 with Delta 1000. Go from '1000 to '125 and you add three stops. Go from f/16 to f/3.5 and you knock off 4-1/2 more stops, for 7-1/2 total. Still 3-1/2 stops underexposed from middle grey, meaning that the face is exposed below the threshold of detail, and no amount of pushing or special printing will ever add detail there. Once something falls at a low tone, it cannot significantly be pushed, as pushing really only works on the midtones and high tones. In my experience, you can get a decent print (albeit rather gnarly to get it) if a face has to be underexposed by two stops. Any more than that, and you have to just find a way to work with it as a block of dark tone in the print, perhaps with a touch of texture there if you are between 2 and 3 stops under.

    If you really want to get slick, you can take your brother back to the bar, put him in the same lighting situations, and take some meter readings off of his face with your meter set at EI 1000. Compare the exposures it gives you to the one you actually used the night of the jam session, and you know how underexposed he was in each position onstage.

    You were at a disadvantage with a long and slow lens. I find f/2.8 unusable to capture detail in faces in an *average* situation (unless the lens has Image Stabilzation and the person is holding still enough to get a shot with a slow shutter speed, like is this example shot with a borrowed Canon 70-200 2.8 IS at 200mm, f/2.8 at '50, uncropped (love the LONG lens from the front row!):


    or this one at '100 at 70mm:
    )
    (Adjusted on a mac with 2.2 gamma setting, so will look washed out on a standard mac screen. Both shots are of members of the band Savage Republic.)
    My lenses for this stuff are my 50mm 1.4s, my 55mm 1.2, my 28mm f/2.0, 35mm f/2.0, 85mm f/1.8 and 100mm f/2.0. I *hate* to say things like this, but a lot of your problem in this case was simply being at a disadvantage equipment wise. Your lens would work fine in a very well-lit venue, but not your average bar.
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 04-03-2009 at 06:59 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  2. #12

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    I know... it was the wrong lens for that situation. But I had already gotten many good shots on the 50mm f/1.4, so I wanted to do something different for the other roll of film.

    If i understand you correctly, this being a poorly lit venue, there will not be much detail no matter how much I push process.

    Unfortunately, it is not possible to go back there and meter, since it is not a permanent stage.

    I'll dev it tonight, in a few hours, it will be as 6400, and I will post the result.

    btw. gorgeus performance shots there 2F

  3. #13

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    "I know... it was the wrong lens for that situation. But I had already gotten many good shots on the 50mm f/1.4, so I wanted to do something different for the other roll of film."

    Oohhh.....one question: did you use both lenses on the same roll of film? If so, I would favor the 1.4 shots in development. They stand a much better working chance.

    "If i understand you correctly, this being a poorly lit venue, there will not be much detail no matter how much I push process."

    EXACTLY. You have to understand that idea when shooting, so you know what to shoot for.

    "Unfortunately, it is not possible to go back there and meter, since it is not a permanent stage."

    That is too bad. It would give you the most definitive answer, for sure.

    "I'll dev it tonight, in a few hours, it will be as 6400, and I will post the result."

    I am interested in seeing them, and in knowing the negative densities that your scanner reads.

    "btw. gorgeus performance shots there 2F"

    Thanks for the compliment. I love that band, and it was a very luxurious experience getting to borrow that lens to shoot them! I can't justify owning one, but I sure did enjoy it while I had it! Those were both at effective ISO 2000, btw.
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 04-03-2009 at 07:20 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  4. #14
    Mark Antony's Avatar
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    Nice shots 2F and good advice, if you're going to do any amount of low light work investing in a 85mm F2 will pay off depending on the size of the venue even a 50mm prime will be OK.
    That said I have had some OK results in relative darkness with 120 cameras with leaf shutters, though subject movement can be a spoiler...

  5. #15
    Mike Té's Avatar
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    Delta 3200, rated at 1600, dev'd at 12.8K in Microphen.

    I know, I know; it's really Delta 1000 .

    I'm just trying to get this film to work for me. With this shot, I managed to get more contrast and finer grain than I had in the past. I'm pleased b/c I'd always had flat, grainy negatives, not bad but not good, either. The Massive Dev gives 16.5 min at 20C for 12.8K in Microphen.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails L'après-foot001.jpg  
    Michael Robert Taylor
    Ottawa

    I wish I'D said that.... Bartlett

    http://www.apug.org/gallery1/browsei...imageuser=7358

  6. #16

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    So, I got around to it now, and I developed the roll for 13 minutes in a dilution A, as an EI 6400 per instructions on the box.

    Here are a few links to some of them:

    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3365/...056f6a28_b.jpg
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3556/...dc0878b5_b.jpg

    and for comparison, a few links to some taken that night, with the 50mm f/1.4 lens, also on Delta 3200, and also at 1/125th second shutter speed. These were developed at EI 3200:

    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3586/...038e5180_b.jpg
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3594/...f67b179e_b.jpg

    I should say that my scanner, an Epson Perfection V300, does not give much insight into grain quality, on account of the noise. Also, these photos have been scanned with a fairly flat contrast setting, to not lose too much detail.

    I am glad I took your advice, and did not push this film beyond EI 6400.
    Thanks for the help to all of you.

    Emil

  7. #17

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    I am so sorry, I seem to have saved these as colour images. Please ignore the bad greenish tint, until I get it fixed.

    Emil

  8. #18
    djkloss's Avatar
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    What developer are you using?

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by djkloss View Post
    What developer are you using?
    HC-110 (from the OP) dilution A (from the latest post with the pix).

    Glad the pix came out well. I like the 2nd shot with the 135mm the best.

    Lesson learned: In these situations, in-camera meters can be worth less than an educated guess (if the guess is based on experience, of course). In actuality, your film got a lot more exposure than your meter had you believe. Meters are easy to fool in high-contrast compositions. Any composition with a large amount of darkness or lightness as a background should send up a warning flag to meter extra carefully, or just apply manual compensation (less exposure if a darker background than the subject and more exposure if a lighter background than the subject). If using an in-camera meter in your situation, I probably would have assumed that it was telling me to give one to two stops more exposure than I actually needed (unless I was framed extremely tightly on someone's face).
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 04-07-2009 at 07:39 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  10. #20
    Athiril's Avatar
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    those aren't too bad, if it were I'd be using Xtol for a variety of reasons

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