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  1. #11
    trexx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHOTOTONE View Post
    The benefit of presoaking in a water bath is more even development, as the "pores" of the gelatin emulsion are "opened up" before going into the developer.
    But is this really a benefit? Now the gelatin is filled with water. The developer is introduced and diluted, at least locally to the gelatin. The diluted developer now does not develop evenly and caused uneven development.

    I have found best results never presoaking unless the film specificities a presoak. That is to say I have had inconsistent results when using a presoak.

    But I will add; if you always presoak, do continue to presoak as it will produce negatives and prints that you are used to and suits your work flow.
    D-76 is a standard developer, although not one I use.
    Ansel Adams - The Negative

  2. #12
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Wow. I stand corrected about Adox and Rollei R3. You always learn something new.

    So what's the benefit? I mean visible benefit. How do you see a difference in the print? I stopped doing presoak a few months ago, and at the same time I stopped doing that I switched to stainless steel tanks, and those two changes changed all my film developing problems with uneven development and air bubbles.

    I'm not convinced that presoaking the film adds any benefit at all. Can you show the benefit? Can you prove it?

    And, for the record: I'm not provoking anybody. I'd just like to see proof or some sort of scientific evidence proving the benefit.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

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  3. #13
    Anscojohn's Avatar
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    What would be the effect, if any, of having the anti-halation dye go back into the developer for those who used replenished developer?
    John, Mount Vernon, Virginia USA

  4. #14
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    That's what I use, John. Edwal 12 as a replenished solution. Regardless of film used, it maintains a brown color. I've run about 60 rolls through the same 2 liter batch now with 100ml fresh developer per roll developed. No change in color. When it's fresh it's slightly brighter.

    - Thomas
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  5. #15

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    As I understood it the only purpose of the presoak was removal of the anti halation dye. I never went further than following the instructions for Adox CHS 50, and have never tried it without the presoak. Next time I shoot 4x5, I will develop a couple of sheets for comparison. K

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anscojohn View Post
    What would be the effect, if any, of having the anti-halation dye go back into the developer for those who used replenished developer?
    almost all developers bleach out the dye. so they pour out clear. only a few one-shot mixes come out purple

  7. #17
    Anscojohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmacd123 View Post
    almost all developers bleach out the dye. so they pour out clear. only a few one-shot mixes come out purple
    **********

    OK
    John, Mount Vernon, Virginia USA

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    Wow. I stand corrected about Adox and Rollei R3. You always learn something new.

    So what's the benefit? I mean visible benefit. How do you see a difference in the print? I stopped doing presoak a few months ago, and at the same time I stopped doing that I switched to stainless steel tanks, and those two changes changed all my film developing problems with uneven development and air bubbles.

    I'm not convinced that presoaking the film adds any benefit at all. Can you show the benefit? Can you prove it?

    And, for the record: I'm not provoking anybody. I'd just like to see proof or some sort of scientific evidence proving the benefit.
    One benefit is that pre-soaking is a quick way of bringing film and the tank up to the required temperature, particularly if the air temperature is significantly different from the developing temperature. By pre-wetting the emulsion and hence helping absorbtion of the developer it should help to prevent the possibility of defects caused by air bubbles.

  9. #19
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Temperature - how is that beneficial? What is the actual effect you see?

    Absorption - Can you show the difference between pre-soaking and not pre-soaking? Do you actually get less air bubbles?

    Still not convinced... Proof is needed.

    What are the actual benefits of pre-soaking the film? What happens during development that makes the negatives better by pre-soaking? And what difference does it make in the final print?

    Not being pesky, I just want to know what the facts are.

    - Thomas

    Quote Originally Posted by Fanshaw View Post
    One benefit is that pre-soaking is a quick way of bringing film and the tank up to the required temperature, particularly if the air temperature is significantly different from the developing temperature. By pre-wetting the emulsion and hence helping absorbtion of the developer it should help to prevent the possibility of defects caused by air bubbles.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  10. #20
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHOTOTONE View Post
    The benefit of presoaking in a water bath is more even development, as the "pores" of the gelatin emulsion are "opened up" before going into the developer.
    I thought I had read in some photo data sheet that presoaking can cause uneven development.

    This makes sense to me. It seems like if the developer has to displace water to contact the emulsion, it would take longer to start developing, and do so at various speeds at various locations.

    Yet someone sez the Maco data sheet calls for it.

    I used to presoak, until I read some data sheet that said not to do so.

    I still presoak when using a Jobo expert drum. It seems to make the developer cover the entirety of the film evenly. It took one disaster that ruined 10 sheets of C-41 film to convince me to follow Jobo's instructions (after some supposed "expert" and ex-photo lab guy on the Internet said not to presoak C-41 or any other film).

    It seems that if initial agitation is constant, it really should only make a difference during the initial pour time (perhaps 15 - 20 sec.). I agitate all films on reels or in trays for one minute initially so that initial development is even.

    In other words, in my experience, there is room for much confusion on this topic. If anything, it seems like the type of tank has more to do with it than anything else.

    So, what is the score for reelz?
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 04-19-2009 at 01:24 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

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