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  1. #21
    Philippe-Georges's Avatar
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    I found the passage in the book by AA : it is page 206.
    Not that I am an unconditional adept of AA, but the man has done some very good things for photography, made very fine pictures and deserves a lot of respect.
    To be complete, here are the data : Ansel Adams, The Negative; Litte,Brown and Company/Boston, second printing, 1982, ISBN 0-8212-1131-5.
    To be clear and avoid typo's, I scanned that part of the text, see the attachment, I hope that the publisher will not shoot me for this.

    I think he wrote something about pre-soaking in the 'zone system' part too, I will check this later.

    Philippe
    Last edited by Philippe-Georges; 05-11-2009 at 02:09 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    "...If you can not stand the rustle of the leafs, then do not go in to the woods..."
    (freely translated quote by Guido Gezelle)

    PS: English is only my third language, please do forgive me my sloppy grammar...

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by leicam5 View Post
    I found the passage in the book by AA : it is page 206.
    Not that I am an unconditional adept of AA, but the man has done some very good things for photography, made very fine pictures and deserves a lot of respect.
    To be complete, here are the data : Ansel Adams, The Negative; Litte,Brown and Company/Boston, second printing, 1982, ISBN 0-8212-1131-5.
    To be clear and avoid typo's, I scanned that part of the text, see the attachment, I hope that the publisher will not shoot me for this.

    I think he wrote something about pre-soaking in the 'zone system' part too, I will check this later.

    Philippe
    That is exactly why I started presoaking.

    However, that was written years ago, and I imagine that films have changed a lot. They have become thinner and harder to my knowledge. Perhaps presoaking only helped with thick emulsion films, where it took more time for developer to penetrate the thickness of the emulsion.

    I specifically read, on some Kodak data sheet, I believe, that films should not be presoaked.

    Like Thomas sez, we can all say that we have had various results with various methods, but is there anybody who has done any actual scientific testing?

    I would think that Kodak has done so...and Maco too. So what gives? Why the different recommendations? I do notice that ADOX is an old-school emulsion. But not the Maco, right?
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 04-19-2009 at 04:18 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    Temperature - how is that beneficial? What is the actual effect you see?


    - Thomas
    I certainly have not done experiments to prove the benefits of pre-soaking so I am not dogmatic about whether it should be done or not. However it must be beneficial to control the temperature during development to obtain consistency. It seems clear to me that if the developing tank and film are brought to the same temperature as the developer before the developer is added then this is beneficial. Otherwise, the temperature of the tank will change unpredictably when the developer is added. Unless you have some means of controlling air temperature it is not easy to adjust the temperature of a dry tank, since it will float in a water bath. Of course this supposed benefit will not matter much if there is little difference between the air temperature and that of the developer.

  4. #24
    Philippe-Georges's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    That is exactly why I started presoaking.

    However, that was written years ago, and I imagine that films have changed a lot. They have become thinner and harder to my knowledge. Perhaps presoaking only helped with thick emulsion films, where it took more time for developer to penetrate the thickness of the emulsion.

    I specifically read, on some Kodak data sheet, I believe, that films should not be presoaked.

    Like Thomas sez, we can all say that we have had various results with various methods, but is there anybody who has done any actual scientific testing?

    I would think that Kodak has done so...and Maco too. So what gives? Why the different recommendations? I do notice that ADOX is an old-school emulsion. But not the Maco, right?
    In the same book, AA is talking about thin-emulsion films, so, I suppose that his remarks were valid for in the thin-emulsion world too.
    See attachment...

    Philippe
    Last edited by Philippe-Georges; 05-11-2009 at 02:09 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    "...If you can not stand the rustle of the leafs, then do not go in to the woods..."
    (freely translated quote by Guido Gezelle)

    PS: English is only my third language, please do forgive me my sloppy grammar...

  5. #25
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    I'll keep hunting for evidence that presoaking helps. Even then, I will continue not presoaking, because for me that's what works.

    Interesting how this discussion evolved from what the color of antihalation dyes are.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  6. #26

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    pre-soaking GP3 / Diafine / Box Tengor

    I have happily found that Shanghai GP3 when presoaked, THEN developed in Diafine 75 degrees F, for 3 Min. + 3 Min. has a working ISO of 30 to 40.

    No good reason to presoak other than I did not want the blue dye the color and intensity of fountain pen ink in my Diafine part A.

    Why the GP3 DROPS in ISO from 80-100 down to 30-40 instead of staying the same OR increasing, I don't know!

    My Zeiss Box Tengor model 56-2 has a shutter speed of 1/30 second and f stops of 9, 11 and 16. Shanghai GP3 developed in Diafine exposed at 30-40 asa/iso in Diafine with a presoak matches the shutter speed and "Sunny 16" rule perfectly when processed in this manner. Negatives are great!

    I wish I were smart enough and had a Sensitometer and Densitometer to expose and read a strip of this film to plot a curve and find the TRUE speed and Contrast index of this GP3 film processed in Diafine with presoak.

    It sure makes a nice old style film to use in a old style camera at the speeds and f stops as they were intended. Plus the price is great.
    All the best,
    Sam H.

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