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  1. #21
    Vaughn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanking View Post
    Do you recall how the testing determined the actual silver content of the papers? I recall seeing a number of such studies, some relating to film, but they all seem to compare modern papers/films with vintage papers/films on the assumption that the vintage papers/films were more highly loaded with silver. But I don't remember any study that established as fact exactly how much silver was in any given paper or film.

    Sandy King
    Sandy, I found the article -- unfortunately just a single page photocopied out of a larger work -- with no identification of author, date, etc. It was a hand-out at a Friends of Photography Workshop ages ago. It was page 91, but that is all the info I have on its origin.

    "I analyzed 10 different papers....for silver content of the emulsion using the volumetric, potentiometric method of Bush et al (49)." Unfortunately the reference pages are missing.

    The author's conclusion was...

    "...the silver content of the papers studied was not related to the maximum black obtainable."

    Some selected data.

    Mg sliver/sq inch : RD of Max Black, then paper type Note...third figure in amounts estimated from chart.

    1.68 : 2.18 Kodabromide (grade 5)
    0.88 : 1.84 Kodabromide (grade 1)
    1.02 : 2.48 Gallerie
    0.92 : 2.47 Portriga Rapid
    1.26 : 2.27 Seagull G-2
    0.87 : 2.20 Brilliant
    1.20 : 1.95 Varigam (but may have been past date)

    Vaughn

    PS...I seem to remember getting the hand-out as a warning not to fall into the "more silver, the more better" trap.
    Last edited by Vaughn; 04-21-2009 at 05:55 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: Rearranged data table
    At least with LF landscape, a bad day of photography can still be a good day of exercise.

  2. #22
    Martin Aislabie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaughn View Post
    While this obviously works for you and thus is a valid method, I do the opposite. I expose for the whites and filter for the blacks.

    I would not get too trapped by the idea of a max black. How all the tones work with each other within the image is what ultimately matters -- and that may mean a less than max black.

    Vaughn
    Vaughn is right - don't get too hung up in getting big meat blacks, as the rest of your print will suffer.

    To get the maximum black out of a paper, it needs a HUGE amount of exposure - and the rest of the print will be dragged down to deep shades of grey

    As an experiment, make a test strip without a Neg in the Carrier and double the exposure of the previous step in the strip.

    The max black you get with any paper will be impressive - but work out how many times more exposure was required than to produce a good deep (but not max) black.

    Remember, the curves they show for paper are logarithmic, not linear

    Good luck

    Martin

  3. #23
    Chazzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco B View Post
    That maybe true, I don't know...


    Of course a scan sucks as an example of DMax, but this one was printed on MGRC Warmtone (un-toned by the way):

    That doesn't look very warm to my eyes.
    Charles Hohenstein

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobNewYork View Post
    Yeah - like Really, Really Black

    I've found that the quest for the absolutely blackest black paper tends to distract from the more important issues of tonality and highlight separation. The "feel" of a photograph depends less on the depth of the black than on other issues. The only reason I want to know the max black of my paper is so I can "nail" my proper proof exposure and then judge the paper from that.

    Bob H
    For the most part yes. But I don't think O Winston Link's prints would look some marvelous with a muddy gray as the darkest tones.

    Be aware the pushing tones too close to the edge means pushing the darker tones onto the shoulder of the curve, where there will less definition. Also when judging wet prints, always be aware of the dry down effect, which is always unpredictable.

  5. #25
    Kvistgaard's Avatar
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    Scholars,
    thanks very much indeed for all the insights on this. I do try to take a holistic view of how the tones in a print play together, but still thought a reference black might be handy. I've changed that last perception now.
    S°ren

    "We are much more likely to act our way into a new way of thinking than think our way into a new way of acting." - R. Pascale

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by reub2000 View Post
    For the most part yes. But I don't think O Winston Link's prints would look some marvelous with a muddy gray as the darkest tones.

    Be aware the pushing tones too close to the edge means pushing the darker tones onto the shoulder of the curve, where there will less definition. Also when judging wet prints, always be aware of the dry down effect, which is always unpredictable.
    I absolutely agree with that. My point is that the minimum exposure / maximum black through unexposed and developed film gives me a basis for a straight proof print. My basic, proof-print exposure places clear film where it should be - as the blackest black the paper can provide.

    My "real" print is one where my exposure is determined by the highlights, with paper contrast used to bring the shadow tones to where I want them. I think of the "max. black" proof print as I think of box speed or development times - it's a point for departure. The proof gives me a starting point for each print.

    I also agree that drydown is an important consideration. I don't evaluate prints until they're fully dried.

    Bob H
    "Why is there always a better way?"

  7. #27
    JBrunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim_walls View Post
    Or in other words, if you ask like how much more black could this be? The answer is none. None more black.
    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlynf--lsxA[/YOUTUBE]

  8. #28
    MattKing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBrunner View Post
    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlynf--lsxA[/YOUTUBE]
    Jason:

    As a moderator, do you often find guidance in the wisdom of Spinal Tap?

    Just wondering

    Matt

  9. #29
    tim_walls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBrunner View Post
    (youtube)
    Phew! I'm glad someone gets it
    Another day goes under; a little bourbon will take the strain...

  10. #30
    Martin Aislabie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBrunner View Post
    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlynf--lsxA[/YOUTUBE]
    LOL

    Martin

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