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  1. #11
    VincentM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertV View Post
    May I remind you that the Fomapan films and Foma papers within the Czech Republic is often on a higher price level then e.g. in Germany or the Netherlands


    Fomatone MG 532 II and MG 542 II are very unique warmtone paper. The Fomatone MG 131 or 132 should be approx. on the level of Ilford warmtone papers.


    Best regards,

    Robert
    Robert,

    Do you actually have/sell the MG532 II and MG542 II ?? Also do you know if those papers come in packages of more than 10 sheets per format from 30x40 and above?

    Thanks

  2. #12
    RobertV's Avatar
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    Do you actually have/sell the MG532 II and MG542 II ??
    I have it on stock in 30x40cm/10sheet.

    These special papers are only available in a few different formats. Always in 10 sheet packing.
    The regular Fomatone MG 131/132 are available in packings of 10 and 50 sheets.

    Best regards,

    Robert

  3. #13

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    It might be special paper but no-one has given an explanation to the OP's original statement " I bought a packet of Foma 532 a while back and it was 18 euros and now its double"

    Is there a cost explanation or has Foma seen what is happening in the paper market with Ilford and we are seeing a form of follow the leader pricing where each manufacturer follows the other. testing the market until it believes it is charging what the market will bear?

    I have said this before and will do so again, B&W paper prices have gone crazy in the last few months in the U.K. and now it seems that other markets are affected. Strangely this large increase hasn't affected RA4 paper and it's now cheaper to use RA4 than B&W. Why this change? Is there something in B&W paper that has risen in cost very substantially that doesn't affect RA4?

    pentaxuser

  4. #14
    RobertV's Avatar
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    There is a huge price difference between Fomatone MG 542 - 532 and Fomatone MG 542 II - 532 II. So maybe that's the reason of the price gap which was over 30% (but not 100% )

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by pentaxuser View Post
    ...Strangely this large increase hasn't affected RA4 paper and it's now cheaper to use RA4 than B&W. Why this change? Is there something in B&W paper that has risen in cost very substantially that doesn't affect RA4?

    pentaxuser
    When comparing classic BW to RA4 paper, manufacturing scale should be considered as well. RA4 sales have only been affected by limited printing in the digital era. It's still the best method and factories still produce huge ammounts of paper. On the other hand, real BW paper is increasingly becoming a "special" product, hence the "special" prices...
    Last edited by Anon Ymous; 05-09-2009 at 04:31 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: Typo

  6. #16

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    Pentaxuser,

    I suspect a fibre base double weight RA-4 paper wouldn't be so inexpensive if it were available.

    Tom.

  7. #17

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    Tom. OK I'll give this whole thing up after this final reply as my questions seem to be getting me nowhere fast but I just haven't seen anything that convinces me that the increase in B&W paper prices has a cause other than the belief that the market which I suspect is full of "distress purchasers"(defined as people who feel they have no choice but to pay what's demanded) can bear a higher price. Our Swedish OP mentions a massive increase. Others in the U.K. who belong to forums outside APUG have expressed similar concerns so I am not the only one with concerns about whether the price increases are fully justified.

    Yes RA4 in fibre double base may well be more expensive but it still doesn't explain the kinds of increases we've seen in B&W paper resulting in the gap between RA4 and B&W fibre doublebase is growing bigger. It can't all be explained by the greater volume of RA4 paper. Ilford collapsed and for a while total sales of B&W paper must have fallen then Ilfordphoto (Harman Technology) rose from the ashes of the old Ilford company. It has since bought Kentmere and has grown in strength by making a profit but it's only in recent months that prices have risen disproportionately o Presumably the old company couldn't make a profit and couldn''t or wouldn't make the changes to survive. The new company made those painful changes but this didn't involve increasing prices immediately after the management buy-out so was the new company operating at a loss initially at its prices of say 2005 to very recently and now needs these increases for continued survival? Maybe but if this is the case it would have been more honest to say so.

    Like me, you must have seen the massive increase in FB especially WT in the U.K. The question in my opinion still remains - why?.

    We all have theories, many of which do the manufacturers job for them in terms of making us shrug our shoulders and saying "it's just the way things are" but if we believe that we aren't entirely being dealt with fairly by our major utilities companies such as the gas and electricity suppliers and this view is supported by the Govt Regulators who launch inquiries, why should those dealing in B&W paper be exempt from such suspicions.

    I remain unconvinced that the increases in B&W paper prices are fully justified.

    pentaxuser

  8. #18

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    The new company made those painful changes but this didn't involve increasing prices immediately after the management buy-out so was the new company operating at a loss initially at its prices of say 2005 to very recently and now needs these increases for continued survival? Maybe but if this is the case it would have been more honest to say so.
    Purely speculation on my part but I suspect many of these issues are related to time lag between an event and a production cycle (e.g. a manufacture of a particular paper). Harman has stated in the past either their intention or the actuality of producing significant stocks of the Kentmere products at the Kendal facility, a statement which would seem to indicate a good supply of Kentmere products since the move, up to the point of a decision on discontinuation.

    Paper has gone up in price in general, however I remember paying about £30 a box for ILFORD 8x10 RC 100 sheets about 5 years ago, whereas the price now seems to be about £25.

    We all have theories, many of which do the manufacturers job for them in terms of making us shrug our shoulders and saying "it's just the way things are" but if we believe that we aren't entirely being dealt with fairly by our major utilities companies such as the gas and electricity suppliers and this view is supported by the Govt Regulators who launch inquiries, why should those dealing in B&W paper be exempt from such suspicions.
    I'm not sure Harman Technology can be compared to the BBC or a major electricity supply company. Harman / ILFORD make good products and I have to assume the price they set is one they feel makes sense; competitors are available...

    Tom.
    Last edited by Tom Kershaw; 05-09-2009 at 09:56 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by pentaxuser View Post
    We all have theories, many of which do the manufacturers job for them in terms of making us shrug our shoulders and saying "it's just the way things are" but if we believe that we aren't entirely being dealt with fairly by our major utilities companies such as the gas and electricity suppliers and this view is supported by the Govt Regulators who launch inquiries, why should those dealing in B&W paper be exempt from such suspicions.

    I remain unconvinced that the increases in B&W paper prices are fully justified.

    pentaxuser
    I think a lot of the pricing on paper like anything else has to do with supply and demand. For a long time, demand for B&W materials has been shrinking, so as machines used to make materials has gotten to the end of it's life, it has not been replaced, so the supply was also shrinking. This was fine until a couple of years ago, when photographers started realizing that digital was more hype then hope, and photographers in larger numbers started looking back at film, many of them started their time in photography with B&W, and they returned to it, demand for B&W materials increased. Really increased for the first time since the 1950's. So materials manufacturers got caught with an increase in demand and a shrinking supply, so prices go up.

    Some of the older machinery may be able to return to service, or new machines may be made, to increase supply, and then prices will go down as supply and demand balance out.

    Now what may also happen is that specialist papers with tiny markets may cease manufacture or be drastically reduced so that machines can be dedicated to more standard products. I expect that FB papers with special grades, tones and finishes will be the first to go. While Multi-grade RC papers in glossy and pearl type finishes will be more common and therefore will not see the drastic price increases.

    I could be totally out-to-lunch here, but it makes sense.
    Paul Schmidt
    See my Blog at http://clickandspin.blogspot.com

    The greatest advance in photography in the last 100 years is not digital, it's odourless stop bath....

  10. #20
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    There could be lots of reasons for a price increase. Margin is one example. It's my belief that in a world recession there are still going to be people that can afford to purchase what they like. If you sell less, you should make more money on each package.
    Then of course when the economy turns around, they don't lower the prices back down again.

    Competing with price and lowering profit margins eventually erodes the market and nobody makes money. I believe that's why companies like Ilford withdrew from doing re-branding of their products to others, and instead make custom coatings for others such as Adox and Kentmere.

    - Thomas
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

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