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  1. #1
    SchwinnParamount's Avatar
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    Should HC 110-b give ultra-big grain for Fortepan 400?

    Has anyone souped the Forte 400 from Freestyle in Kodak HC-110, dilution B?

    This film was exposed at 400, given 9 minutes at 68%. Agitation was 10 seconds every 30 seconds. Yes, that's prolly more agitation than is recommended for the developer.

    The contrast was nice... very nice. But the grain was super icky. On the other hand, the grain was super cool. It depends on what you're after, I suppose.

    So, grain. Anybody else notice this?
    Last edited by SchwinnParamount; 06-19-2009 at 12:17 AM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: stupid title edited

  2. #2
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    I only have experience with this film in 4x5 format, and even at that size I got pretty accentuated grain at 11x14 print size, relatively anyway. I liked the film, and the grain is gorgeous. HC-110 isn't exactly shy about grain either, gives sort of a 'gritty' appearance. I wish the film was still around.
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  3. #3
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    HC-110 dilution B at normal exposure and normal time should give very nice and unobtrusive grain when stacked up against any other standard Kodak developer. If anything, it is too smooth for my taste sometimes.

    However, if the film itself is a particularly grainy film, then of course HC-110, or any other developer, can only do so much to minimize it.

    Graininess is heavily affected by film type, exposure, and development. You are using a 400 film, which is relatively grainy, plus any exposure issues (especially overexposure) will increase the grain even more. Additionally, if you agitated 10 seconds out of every 30, that is twice as much agitation as was used by Kodak when they tested for their recommended small tank times, so it has the effect of overdevelopment, which increases graininess.

    I am guessing 1. that Forte 400 is a grainy film, and 2. that you overdeveloped it quite a bit by following the 1/3-of-the-developing-time agitation regimen instead of the 1/6-of-the-developing-time regimen recommended by Kodak (and Ilford, for that matter).

    I would try again, but this time expose carefully with an incident meter if you have one available. If not, use a grey card. Meter the card and open up one half stop from what the recommended f stop is. When developing, make extra certain that all your chemicals are about the same temperature, and for agitation try either 5 seconds out of every 30 or 10 seconds out of every 60. You should get less graininess by doing all this. If it is still too much, you can try a different 400 film, or move to a 100 film if the light will allow it.
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 06-19-2009 at 12:39 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

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  4. #4
    BradS's Avatar
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    Forte 400...I used to love that film when J&C sold it as Classic Pan 400. It took quite a few rolls to get dialed in. Strange and lovely stuff. It has much bigger grain than any of the modern ISO 400 films (like Tri-X, HP5+, Neopan400). It also seems to be a thicker emulsion than any of the comparable modern films and so often does not appear to be as sharp.


    My notes, for 35mm, say...

    Forte / Classic Pan 400
    EI 250~400
    HC-110B, 20 degrees C, 8 minutes with gentle agitation.

    ---- however, I got better results with ----

    D-23 - 6mins followed by 2% borax solution after bath for 4mins.

    Keep working with it.

  5. #5
    Christopher Walrath's Avatar
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    Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry9000/4.6.0.167 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102 UP.Link/6.3.0.0.0)

    And to reiterate Keith, you did double time on agitation which is more than likely where the grain came from. Want golf balls, add another 30 seconds dev time including another 10 second agitation.
    Last edited by Christopher Walrath; 06-19-2009 at 06:18 AM. Click to view previous post history.
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  6. #6
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    You may have micro reticulation which causes grain clumping and makes it far worse.

    It's a myth that agitation itself causes grain, it does increase the rate of development and over developed negatives do have more grain.

    Ian

  7. #7
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    [increased agitation] does increase the rate of development and over developed negatives do have more grain.
    ...which is what was stated above. Where are the people who believe that agitation frequency directly affects grain? I've never heard that.

    Additionally, the fact that more agitation leads to more rapid development is so much of a given that it can be stated that for a given developing time, increasing the periods of agitation increases graininess, and this would not be an incorrect or misleading statement.

    Even so, any chances of implication were decidedly eliminated by the way in which I explained it above (basically the same as you explained it).

    What I wrote (boldface added):

    "Graininess is heavily affected by film type, exposure, and development. You are using a 400 film, which is relatively grainy, plus any exposure issues (especially overexposure) will increase the grain even more. Additionally, if you agitated 10 seconds out of every 30, that is twice as much agitation as was used by Kodak when they tested for their recommended small tank times, so it has the effect of overdevelopment, which increases graininess.

    "I am guessing 1. that Forte 400 is a grainy film, and 2. that you overdeveloped it quite a bit by following the 1/3-of-the-developing-time agitation regimen instead of the 1/6-of-the-developing-time regimen recommended by Kodak (and Ilford, for that matter)."

    I don't see how anyone could get any "myth" or "implication" of agitation directly affecting graininess from this.
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 06-19-2009 at 09:53 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

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  8. #8
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    ...which is what was stated above.
    The implication however was that it's agitation that increases Grain size.

    Ian

  9. #9
    Uncle Bill's Avatar
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    I miss Forte/Classicpan 400. I usually exposed anywhere between 250 to 400 ISO and developed with HC110 Dil B for about 9 min only I did 10 seconds gentle agitation every minute. That film had grain you could tee off with and I miss the tonality.
    "Life moves pretty fast, if you don't stop and look around once and a while, you might just miss it."
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  10. #10
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    The implication however was that it's agitation that increases Grain size.

    Ian
    Where? Chris' post? I did not get that implication at all (nor a myth).
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 06-19-2009 at 09:50 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

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