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  1. #1

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    Pyrocat-HD and pre-soaking / pre-rinsing

    I realise the standard advice is to use a pre-soak or rinse before developing film with Pyrocat-HD. However, as I have suspicions about a variable mains water supply, I'm interested in hearing about experiences of using Pyrocat-HD without a pre-soak or rinse specifically relating to Jobo processing (ATL-2300 in my case), but also small tank, deep tank, tray etc.


    Tom

  2. #2
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Only time I've had problems with any developer is when I've used a presoak. (Except for Colour work)

    I've used Pyrocat at laest 4 years now and never used a presoak and hvae always had perfect negatives, exect a tiny problems with airbells top edge of a spiral ,a n 2 drops wetting agent stops taht. Any more causes foaming. (You nbsaw the images I posted last yaer)

    Ian

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    Only time I've had problems with any developer is when I've used a presoak. (Except for Colour work)

    I've used Pyrocat at laest 4 years now and never used a presoak and hvae always had perfect negatives, exect a tiny problems with airbells top edge of a spiral ,a n 2 drops wetting agent stops taht. Any more causes foaming. (You nbsaw the images I posted last yaer)

    Ian
    Yes, I saw the photos you posted last year. I'm having some consistency issues with my Jobo processing after 50+ rolls in Pyrocat-HD and probably a couple of hundred others in Tetenal Ultrafin and Ilfotec HC. Another test roll and an unopened set of Pyrocat-HD concentrate on Saturday... I may have got rid of the air bubbles issue; as the air bubbles have appeared only recently, perhaps the wetting agent builds up to a critical tipping point at which point the potential for bubbles is made possible.

    Interestingly, I came across a reference to Jobo recommending against a pre-soak for colour film due to the potential for colour shift, but promoting pre-rinsing for black & white processing. However, in another post, a note from Jobo USA in relation to XTOL suggests pre-soaking was given as a recommendation originally to maintain development times from standard small tank agitation. However Sandy King would seem to suggest that pre-soaking is almost required for Jobo / Pyrocat-HD processing.

    Tom

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kershaw View Post
    Y
    However Sandy King would seem to suggest that pre-soaking is almost required for Jobo / Pyrocat-HD processing.

    Tom
    I have always, forever, recommended the presoak for developing film with any pyro staining developer in tubes or drum with constant rotary agitation.

    Some folks don't do the presoak and seem to get good results. But I still recommend it, and have never, ever, seen any harm from it. On the other hand, I have seen problems when no presoak was done.

    Sandy King

  5. #5
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Apologies for last nights spelling

    The pros and cons of a Pre-soak remind me of something a wise old wise old mechanic once told me when discussing using tap water to top up a car battery. He said of distilled water & tap water, "put it this way with one the battery will last another two years but with the other only 24 months".

    It really is a case of what works for you, with colour it was the best way to ensure accurate temperatures.

    Ironically using a pre-soak may actually decrease the acutance and edge effects slightly with a tanning developer as the emulsion is swelling before development rather than along with development, which is the principle of the Windisch Surface developer.

    Ian

  6. #6

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    How does the pre-soak alter contrast if it all? On a fresh in-date roll of Delta 100 processed today in the previously mentioned full containers of Pyrocat-HD I seemed to get rather high contrast; however this may be due to the high contrast daylight in full sun with dark shadows. The highlights seemed slightly dull and there was a slight lack of shadow detail, possible due to the inbuilt meter on my Bronica RF645 trying to overcompensate for the bright areas.

    A note though to other ATL processor users, check your temperatures with an external thermometer. Although the ATL-2300 was reporting a solution and water bath temperature of 26ºC my Paterson black & white glass thermometer reported a temperature of just over 24ºC. As I was processing the film without a 2 minute pre-rinse I increased the development time from 8 minutes to 10 minutes (50 r.p.m). On the Jobo the pre-rinse is provided from a tempered supply which I realized is set at approx. 35ºC for colour work, so the pre-rinse may warm up the film emulsion which is then brought down by the cooler developer to some unknown intermediate temperature. If this is what has happened then my negatives have been remarkably consistent...

    Tom
    Last edited by Tom Kershaw; 08-01-2009 at 10:47 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kershaw View Post
    How does the pre-soak alter contrast if it all? On a fresh in-date roll of Delta 100 processed today in the previously mentioned full containers of Pyrocat-HD I seemed to get rather high contrast; however this may be due to the high contrast daylight in full sun with dark shadows. consistent...

    Tom
    The pre-soak will decrease contrast with short development time, say five minutes or less. The reason is that when you pre-soak the emulsion absorbs water. When you put the film in a developer the water has to get out before the developer can get in. With longer development I don't think it makes much difference whether you pre-soak or not.

    Never thought about Ian's remark that the pre-soak may decrease acutance. I will have to mull on that.

    Sandy King

  8. #8
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    This morning I sat at the swimming pool reading about tanning developers and comparing Pyrocat to Windisch Surface developer and my conclusion was Pyrocat's has distinct similarities to Windisch once dilute and so should show the same tanning effects as the developer is taken into the film and developing starts. But due to the additive effects of the Phenidone it'll give better tonality etc.

    You'll still get acutance with a pre-soak but it won't be the same, semi-stand development will probably help enhance it.

    Ian

  9. #9

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    Ian,

    Are you processing your film in Paterson tanks?

    Tom.

  10. #10
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Either Paterson for 120 or a rare now 35mm, and a couple of Jobo 2000's one here the other in the UK for 5x4's or a mix. Usually a few films per session. Trays for 10x8

    Ian



 

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