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  1. #11
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeSeb View Post
    Ian, have you found much difference between standard D76/ID-11 and D76H (more metol, no HQ)? I haven't seen much difference, myself.
    No I've not tried it Mike, but I've used D23/D25, and many the official Kodak variants, I preferred Adox Borax MQ which gave better acutance, tonality, film speed as well as finer grain. My own feeling is it shouldn't be listed as D76H as it wasn't a Kodak formula, but D76h was, Bill Troop states it's a hypothetical developer that Haist discussed with him which he knew would work.

    D76h also has 2.5g Metol with the usual amounts of Hydroquinone, Sulphite & Borax but has 15g of Boric acid added to the formula. There are other Kodak variants of D76 published by Kodak Research in the mid to late 1930's with no number designation.

    Ian

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    No I've not tried it Mike, but I've used D23/D25, and many the official Kodak variants, I preferred Adox Borax MQ which gave better acutance, tonality, film speed as well as finer grain. My own feeling is it shouldn't be listed as D76H as it wasn't a Kodak formula, but D76h was, Bill Troop states it's a hypothetical developer that Haist discussed with him which he knew would work.

    D76h also has 2.5g Metol with the usual amounts of Hydroquinone, Sulphite & Borax but has 15g of Boric acid added to the formula. There are other Kodak variants of D76 published by Kodak Research in the mid to late 1930's with no number designation.

    Ian
    Ian, I have tried D-76d buffered-borax which uses 8 grams of borax and 8 grams of boric acid in each litre of stock. This has often been cited as the current commercial D-76 formula. I used to think that myself after reading the MSDS on Kodak`s site. I now strongly disagree, as I found that D-76d needs significantly longer development times with the films I tried
    (FP4 Plus and HP5 Plus).
    The Fomadon-P developer seems to be an M.Q. buffered-borax developer which you will find the times for on the massive development chart, which I assume is from Foma`s own technical-data. I wouldn`t bother making D-76d again.
    If you`re making a developer for one-shot use, make ORIGINAL D-76 (ID-11) and dilute it 1+1 for the working strength solution. For replenishment, then may be the Adox Borax MQ developer and replenisher is a better choice.
    You have experience with replenished developers where as I don`t.
    I may try the Adox formula one day.
    To me, once the hydroquinone is omitted and not replaced with a suitable alternative, it is no longer a developer of the D-76 type, but becomes a D-23 type with the addition of borax. I`m not saying that D-76H doesn`t work or doesn`t give good results as I`m sure it does, I just don`t consider it to be a D-76 type.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post

    D76h also has 2.5g Metol with the usual amounts of Hydroquinone, Sulphite & Borax but has 15g of Boric acid added to the formula.

    Ian
    The formula I have for D-76H is just three constituents which are as follows.

    Metol = 2.5 grams
    Sodium sulphite, anhydrous = 100 grams
    Borax = 2 grams
    To make 1 litre of stock solution.

    This is why I don`t consider it to be a developer of the D-76 type.

  4. #14
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    D76h is a published Kodak formula, while D76H is one suggested to Bill Troop by Grant Haist, the H standing for Haist Very confusing. D103 is halfway between D23 & D76, and DK76b is D76 with no Hydroquinone and Metaborate as the buffer so Kodak had been playing ang publishing D76H type formulae.

    I think we said elsewhere that the actual formula for commercial D76 is likely to be somewhere between the published formula for D76 and D76d, it clearly has Boric acid in it but then looking at the MSDS:

    D76 MSDS
    Concentrate:
    85-90 Sodium sulfite
    4 Hydroquinone
    1-5 Sodium tetraborate, pentahydrate
    1-5 4-(methylamino)phenol sulfate
    < 1 Boric anhydride

    Working solution:
    85-90 Water
    5-10 Sodium sulfite
    1-5 Sodium tetraborate,
    < 1 Hydroquinone
    < 1 4-(methylamino)phenol sulfate
    ---------------------------------------

    Assuming Kodak's MSDS is right, most seem to be, we know that there's

    100 g Sulphite 10% in Solution
    5 g Hyroquinone 0.5% in soln
    2 g Metol 0.2% in soln
    10+ g Borax -- at least 1% in solution so 10 g or over

    So we know that's around 99% of the Dry weight, and that may have a small amount of a sequestering agent.

    That seems to indicate a maximum amount of about 1.3g Boric Anhydride (Boric acid)

    If the Borax has been increased to 10g then the Boric acid would be there to drop the pH back down

    Ian

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    D76h is a published Kodak formula, while D76H is one suggested to Bill Troop by Grant Haist, the H standing for Haist Very confusing. D103 is halfway between D23 & D76, and DK76b is D76 with no Hydroquinone and Metaborate as the buffer so Kodak had been playing ang publishing D76H type formulae.

    I think we said elsewhere that the actual formula for commercial D76 is likely to be somewhere between the published formula for D76 and D76d, it clearly has Boric acid in it but then looking at the MSDS:

    D76 MSDS
    Concentrate:
    85-90 Sodium sulfite
    4 Hydroquinone
    1-5 Sodium tetraborate, pentahydrate
    1-5 4-(methylamino)phenol sulfate
    < 1 Boric anhydride

    Working solution:
    85-90 Water
    5-10 Sodium sulfite
    1-5 Sodium tetraborate,
    < 1 Hydroquinone
    < 1 4-(methylamino)phenol sulfate
    ---------------------------------------

    Assuming Kodak's MSDS is right, most seem to be, we know that there's

    100 g Sulphite 10% in Solution
    5 g Hyroquinone 0.5% in soln
    2 g Metol 0.2% in soln
    10+ g Borax -- at least 1% in solution so 10 g or over.

    So we know that's around 99% of the Dry weight, and that may have a small amount of a sequestering agent.

    That seems to indicate a maximum amount of about 1.3g Boric Anhydride (Boric acid) [B]
    If the Borax has been increased to 10g then the Boric acid would be there to drop the pH back down

    Ian
    That would make 118.3+ grams of dry components per litre of stock developer. I am still not convinced of the addition of boric-oxide in D-76 due to the description of borax by Grant Haist. Also, the dry weight of the components in the 1 litre packages of D-76 is stated as 110 grams. This is also mentioned in the MSDS that I have. I have found that the standard formula seems to match the commercial products for contrast with the recommended development times, but D-76d takes quite a bit longer.
    I am told that borax can form a whole myriad of boron-ions when it goes into solution, so this makes it difficult to analyse even for a chemist.

    KODAK D-76 MSDS.

    Weight % - Component - ( CAS Registry Number).
    Concentrate:
    85-90 Sodium Sulphite (007757-83-7)
    1-5 Hydroquinone (000123-31-9)
    1-5 Sodium Tetraborate (001330-43-4)
    1-5 Bis (4-hydroxy-N-methylanilinium) sulphate (000055-55-0)
    < 1 Boric Anhydride (001303-86-2)
    < 1 Pentasodium (carboxylatomethyl) iminobis (ethylenenitrilo) tetraacetate
    (000140-01-2)

    Weight of concentrate = approximately 110 grams/litre. (This it self rules out D-76d formula which is 123 grams per litre of stock, not to mention sequestering agents etc).

    From the book "Modern Photographic Processing" by Grant Haist, Volume 1:

    Borate Alkali's: "Borax,Na2B4O7.10H2O, is the common name for sodium tetraborate, an alkaline compound used in the preparation of low-contrast, fine-grain developers. Borax may be written (NaBO2)2.B2O3, which shows the boric anhydride that limits the alkalinity possible from borax.
    Borax acts as a buffer; that is, it maintains a reservoir of alkali but delivers only small quantities of hydroxyl ions at any one time. The alkalinity is maintained relatively unchanged until all of the borax has been neutralised."

  6. #16
    MikeSeb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kershaw View Post
    Michael,

    You use XTOL as standard if I recall correctly?

    Tom
    For quite a while I did, Tom, and was well pleased with it.

    Lately I have been using more D76H which I mix myself of course. It's always fresh, it's quite simple, and I like the results with 400TMY better than anything else I've tried. I'm also using more TMAX dev and HC-110. I find I am shooting and developing a lot more color negative film these days than B&W, so my B&W developing sessions are fewer and farther between. These last two have very good shelf life.

    I think TMAX is an underrated developer. Its main drawback is its cost; it ain't cheap. But I like it for 100TMX and for 320TXP better than others I've tried.
    Michael Sebastian
    Website | Blog

  7. #17
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanking View Post
    Hi Ron,

    You are right.

    Question for Bill Troop, why did you list this as a variant? I trusted your information, which in retrospect was a big mistake. Cost me a fair amount of time for no good reason except poor editing of that book.

    Look at page 43 of the Film Developing Cookbook. D76R is listed as one of the variants of D76, nothing in that chart about replenishment.

    Sandy King
    Sandy;

    I agree. That was an oversight.

    Like all authors, I am proofing my book and have found about 4 errors just on the first page. Grant Haist has shown me his "manuscript" of fixes if he should come out with a second edition of his two volumes. There are a lot of errata and changes he would make, and Bill has told me that he has a list of changes if the FDC has a second edition.

    This is just another to add to the list unfortunately.

    PE

  8. #18
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Who knows Kodak could have countered a slight increase in activity by slight dilution to compensate.

    Ian

  9. #19

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    Ron,

    Yes, we all make mistakes. Plus, I should not blame Bill for my own lack of attention. On looking at that D76R formula again it should be obvious that it would be much more energetic than the other versions of D76. But I had exposed some 4X5 comparison negatives with optimum lighting conditions yesterday morning and now will have to repeat the work.

    Sandy






    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Sandy;

    I agree. That was an oversight.

    Like all authors, I am proofing my book and have found about 4 errors just on the first page. Grant Haist has shown me his "manuscript" of fixes if he should come out with a second edition of his two volumes. There are a lot of errata and changes he would make, and Bill has told me that he has a list of changes if the FDC has a second edition.

    This is just another to add to the list unfortunately.

    PE

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by sanking View Post
    Ron,

    Yes, we all make mistakes. Plus, I should not blame Bill for my own lack of attention. On looking at that D76R formula again it should be obvious that it would be much more energetic than the other versions of D76. But I had exposed some 4X5 comparison negatives with optimum lighting conditions yesterday morning and now will have to repeat the work.

    Sandy
    It would probably be better to buy either Kodak D-76, Ilford ID-11 or mix the standard D-76/ID-11 formula from scratch. I think it works better diluted 1+1 than at stock strength.

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