Teaspoon measuring

[BradS]

Brad;

Now, tell me, what would you say in my place?

PE

PE, If I were you I might say and do as you have. I think your responses here have been entirely reasonable (if slightly biased) given your background and perspective.

I'll say this: I highly value your contributions here and I also value those of Mr. Gainer and several others. I actually seek out posts from several people in this community and filter out much of the rest.

The "buy a scale" comments aside, this has been a pretty good discussion.


The Potassium Bromide example you supplied makes a good point and again, I like your advice, "If you can accept that much variation, go for it". I probably would not in this specific case, given the that the effect would probably be quite significant. others have supplied counter examples; Sodium hydroxide (hygroscopic) , and sodium sulfite(does it really mater if I have 90grams or 110 grams instead of 100?) being two. I think in each case, one needs to ask: Does it really matter? is there a significant photographic effect?

It depends from case to case of course.

In general, I think people mis these two questions too often. People, especially in the LF community, tend to get, or are very pedantic. I think there tends to be way too much emphasis placed upon "the best", "the most accurate", "the sharpest", "the highest resolution", etc...as if nothing but the absolute very best could ever be acceptable.

I look back on all those photos my mom took in the 1950's and 1960's with a simple Kodak Brownie Hawkeye. One shutter speed, one aperture, and a simple bakelite box with a cheap, glass triplet. She processed in in the kitchen and somehow managed to make priceless prints in the bathroom...she measured out her chems with teaspoons and tablespoons and mixed them up in Minnesota tap water...and did all that with little more than a college degree in English (she was a news paper journalist). Makes me laugh (and cry) when people say I need a digital spot meter and aspherical, extra low dispersion glass to shoot a LF camera....and I think of how much future generations might miss because they (we?) focus obsessively on pedantic extremes that probably don't matter too much. Imagine giving up on large format because you couldn't do the zone system? Tragic - no? Same goes for not processing your own film for want of an electronic balance. What's wrong with two teaspoons of Metol and four tablespoons of sodium sulfite in a liter of water? It works - every time, and if you cannot get a printable negative from it...well, it's certainly not because you measured with teaspoons.

[Photo Engineer]

Brad;

Thanks for a very reasoned answer. I appreciate the thought that went into it. It taught me a lot as well.

PE

[BradS]

Brad;

Thanks for a very reasoned answer. I appreciate the thought that went into it. It taught me a lot as well.

PE

...and thank you sir, for all your contributions to this community.

[jim appleyard]

Nope, he moved to Photo Net.

However, Jim, having now chimed in...

What would you do if you were me?

I'm interested.

PE

Perhaps I should have put a "" after my post.

I would do as you have done, give the best information possible. I respect everyone here and their opinions. However, I do like to pull some legs from time to time.

Like you, I say use what works for you.

[sanking]

Well, Sandy, you make stock solutions of your Pyrocat series and from there on it is volumetric measurements to make the working solution. You see the virtues of both. There are some chemicals that are best made into stock solutions.

Sure, I have nothing against volumetric measurements when precision is not needed. That works fine for me with many solutions, like fixer and clearing agents, and it should work fine with many paper developers. That won't work with film developers that require small quantities of a certain chemical, like phenidone, potassium bromide, benzotriazole, etc. And if you make stock solutions of these chemicals, which I do for testing purposes, you still need a decent scale to measure.

I just don't see any point to this type of measuring given the small expense of a decent scale. But if someone else wants to work that way, who am I to criticize. I merely pointed a source to a decent electronic scale for about $30 that I would recommend over spoon measurement. I am not making an artistic or philosophical statement, just a practical comment.

Sandy King

[sun of sand]

Well, then we know why products sometimes are a real nightmare. I have a friend who is an engineer and sometimes I will make something out of wood per his design.

If I understand what you just said, for example, the engineer request from me a wood block, 12 inches by 12 inches by 12 inches, and I delivered a woodl block 11.5 inches by 12.5 inches by 11.90 inches, its OK?

As they say, size matters.

I could not build a house or a cabinet or a clock!

But you could build an airplane? There must be something being lost in the translation or I am never going to fly again.

I certainly am not trying to insult you but it just seems screwy to me. :o

Ha, but then again, I am not an engineer.

sandpaper and caulk.

[Sirius Glass]

Remember what John Heywood wrote way back in 1546:

"A man maie well bring a horse to the water, But he can not make him drinke without he will."

Keep showing us to the water PE. Some of us are thirsty.

I am an aerospace engineer; I am hardware/software systems engineer; I am a safety expert for NASA and the FAA; I have written books of nuclear safety for the NRC; I am not a photo/film engineer.

I have gone to the trouble to buy a scale to weight 200g with 0.1 gram of accuracy and a 1k scale to weight to 0.2 grams of accuracy. I am here to learn how to process film and prints correctly, accurately, and consistantly.

I am not here to read the vomiting of a self proclaimed expert from outside the photographic field pontificate on the advantages of mixing chemicals in a toilet bowl using questional and inconsistant methods on the cheap!

Am I being direct enough to get through?

Steve

[fotch]

I am an aerospace engineer; I am hardware/software systems engineer; I am a safety expert for NASA and the FAA; I have written books of nuclear safety for the NRC; I am not a photo/film engineer.

I have gone to the trouble to buy a scale to weight 200g with 0.1 gram of accuracy and a 1k scale to weight to 0.2 grams of accuracy. I am here to learn how to process film and prints correctly, accurately, and consistantly.

I am not here to read the vomiting of a self proclaimed expert from outside the photographic field pontificate on the advantages of mixing chemicals in a toilet bowl using questional and inconsistant methods on the cheap!

Am I being direct enough to get through?

Steve

Yes.

[gainer]

I am an aerospace engineer; I am hardware/software systems engineer; I am a safety expert for NASA and the FAA; I have written books of nuclear safety for the NRC; I am not a photo/film engineer.

-----
I am not here to read the vomiting of a self proclaimed expert from outside the photographic field pontificate on the advantages of mixing chemicals in a toilet bowl using questional and inconsistant methods on the cheap!

Am I being direct enough to get through?

Steve

And who among us did that? You're being direct enough to be obnoxious, but not direct enough to say whom you are railing about.

[Rick A]

Brad;

You are right.....

Of course, if we don't pass things on correctly to the following generations, they are doomed to doing it incorrectly and this level of accuracy will slowly degenerat. So, what would you do if you were me? Would you teach the wrong things? Give inaccurate formulas? I am trying to teach, and others seem to not care. This is a tough position to be in for me. Especially when Patrick says that "since 1973 the solution has given me the same activity" when in fact, he may be using the same batch of chemicals or he may not have made exact side-by-side comparisons. IDK.

If you use the same ingredients from the same bottle with the same crystal habit, this method will work, but if you change batches or crystal size or habit, then the volumetric measures can be off by 20%.

Now, tell me, what would you say in my place?

PE

thank you for trying to teach all of us to be correct, and passing it on correctly. Our society wants(demands) shortcuts--something some of us are NOT willing to do.
Rick