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  1. #21

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    I would not trust any aged developer without a clip test.
    Kirk

    For up from the ashes, up from the ashes, grow the roses of success!

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    Dosch's survbey is flawed on the one graph all the developers do in activity significantly in week 13 only to bounce back two weeks later, that says more about his methods than the developers themselves.
    Is it flawed, or is the precision lower than what is presented?
    Kirk

    For up from the ashes, up from the ashes, grow the roses of success!

  3. #23
    cmo
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayne View Post
    I'd really wish these XTOL reliability threads would just spontaneously fail and never appear again. They're tiring.
    You name it.

    And the reason is that bad workmen always blame their tools.

    If a user fails at mixing, storing or using XTol he probably needs a basic course in darkroom techniques.

    First lesson: affix a label to the bottles. Write on it:

    - "Don't use after XX/XX/XX".
    - "If diluted use min. 100ml stock solution per film."
    - "Don't drink this. It's for the films."

  4. #24
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Keyes View Post
    Is it flawed, or is the precision lower than what is presented?
    Yes the week 13 results show there is an obvious lack of precision which makes the whole dataset less reliable or valuable, it looks like no controls were being run to calibrate the readings.

    Ian
    Last edited by Ian Grant; 08-11-2009 at 02:13 AM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: typo

  5. #25
    Tony Egan's Avatar
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    A D76/ID11 user for 10 years then moved to Xtol 10 years ago. Store stock in wine bladders and use 1+1. Have used once or twice when stock solution was over 1 year old. Never had a problem. Also read those same old articles about the 1 litre packs at the time but they were never available so I never bought them! Make the change! Keep up the demand and sales!
    And as Kirk says if in doubt use that roll of 35mm you have lying around for the fixer test to do a developer test. If it starts to turn black pretty fast it's all go!

  6. #26
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    Brad,
    obviously this is not anything about you, but I think more than a few of us are "exhausted" from this so called problem that has hung around for so long.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by david b View Post
    Brad,
    obviously this is not anything about you, but I think more than a few of us are "exhausted" from this so called problem that has hung around for so long.
    Like the Mythical Hasselblad Mirror Slap Problem, which is for the most part promulgated by TLR folks who cannot afford a Hasselblad [Note to flamers: as stated that statement excludes Rollei TLR users]. For proof see:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkKcbyh2CrA

    And yet like the XTOL sudden death postings continuely come back to haunt us.

    Steve
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

  8. #28
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    Do something right a thousand time, they will take it for granted, do something wrong once, you will pay a thousand times. Especially if your Kodak.
    Items for sale or trade at www.Camera35.com

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by david b View Post
    It is truly amazing how something so long ago can still come up.

    The problem that (rarely) occurred had to do with 1 liter bags that have long been killed.

    Follow the instructions on the bag and use distilled water and you will be fine
    I read extensively on the topic a few years ago (ca. 2005). The 1-liter bags were indeed discontinued and are widely blamed for some XTOL problems; however, some people reported problems even with the 5-liter bags. (Sorry, I didn't keep references.) Several other factors have been cited as contributing to XTOL issues:

    • Contaminants in the water, particularly metals and dissolved oxygen.
    • Storage in partially-full or air-permeable bottles.
    • Use at too-high dilutions (too little stock XTOL per unit of film). IIRC, for a 36-exposure roll of 35mm film, you need ~100ml of stock XTOL to develop a roll, so going beyond 1+1 dilution is risky unless you use significantly more developer than is required to cover the reels. This effect is rumored to be greater for some films, such as T-Max 100, than for others.
    • XTOL usually doesn't discolor with age or when it goes bad, so it can be hard to tell when you're taking a risk.


    Some people dismiss these issues, when they cause problems, as "user error," but IMHO they should be emphasized for new users so that those people don't commit the errors. Also, there's a logical fallacy I see frequently in XTOL fans' posts: They say "I've used it for x years without problems, therefore it has no problems." Well, a product (any product) can have problems only under certain conditions, or only very rarely. The fact that one person hasn't seen problems doesn't mean anything. Take another type of problem in another product to see my point: Any time there's a food poisoning scare (mad cow disease, E. coli in lettuce, etc.), millions of people eat the products as they're being recalled and don't fall ill. Just a few people become ill. Few people would accept the reasoning "well, I ate some lettuce just yesterday, so there's no problem with E. coli in the lettuce!"

  10. #30
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Those comments are true for any Powder developer, like ID-11, D76, Microdol-X, Perceptol etc.

    Ian

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