Is it flawed, or is the precision lower than what is presented?
Originally Posted by Ian Grant
For up from the ashes, up from the ashes, grow the roses of success!
You name it.
Originally Posted by clayne
And the reason is that bad workmen always blame their tools.
If a user fails at mixing, storing or using XTol he probably needs a basic course in darkroom techniques.
First lesson: affix a label to the bottles. Write on it:
- "Don't use after XX/XX/XX".
- "If diluted use min. 100ml stock solution per film."
- "Don't drink this. It's for the films."
Yes the week 13 results show there is an obvious lack of precision which makes the whole dataset less reliable or valuable, it looks like no controls were being run to calibrate the readings.
Originally Posted by Kirk Keyes
Last edited by Ian Grant; 08-11-2009 at 01:13 AM. Click to view previous post history.
A D76/ID11 user for 10 years then moved to Xtol 10 years ago. Store stock in wine bladders and use 1+1. Have used once or twice when stock solution was over 1 year old. Never had a problem. Also read those same old articles about the 1 litre packs at the time but they were never available so I never bought them! Make the change! Keep up the demand and sales!
And as Kirk says if in doubt use that roll of 35mm you have lying around for the fixer test to do a developer test. If it starts to turn black pretty fast it's all go!
obviously this is not anything about you, but I think more than a few of us are "exhausted" from this so called problem that has hung around for so long.
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I read extensively on the topic a few years ago (ca. 2005). The 1-liter bags were indeed discontinued and are widely blamed for some XTOL problems; however, some people reported problems even with the 5-liter bags. (Sorry, I didn't keep references.) Several other factors have been cited as contributing to XTOL issues:
Originally Posted by david b
- Contaminants in the water, particularly metals and dissolved oxygen.
- Storage in partially-full or air-permeable bottles.
- Use at too-high dilutions (too little stock XTOL per unit of film). IIRC, for a 36-exposure roll of 35mm film, you need ~100ml of stock XTOL to develop a roll, so going beyond 1+1 dilution is risky unless you use significantly more developer than is required to cover the reels. This effect is rumored to be greater for some films, such as T-Max 100, than for others.
- XTOL usually doesn't discolor with age or when it goes bad, so it can be hard to tell when you're taking a risk.
Some people dismiss these issues, when they cause problems, as "user error," but IMHO they should be emphasized for new users so that those people don't commit the errors. Also, there's a logical fallacy I see frequently in XTOL fans' posts: They say "I've used it for x years without problems, therefore it has no problems." Well, a product (any product) can have problems only under certain conditions, or only very rarely. The fact that one person hasn't seen problems doesn't mean anything. Take another type of problem in another product to see my point: Any time there's a food poisoning scare (mad cow disease, E. coli in lettuce, etc.), millions of people eat the products as they're being recalled and don't fall ill. Just a few people become ill. Few people would accept the reasoning "well, I ate some lettuce just yesterday, so there's no problem with E. coli in the lettuce!"
Those comments are true for any Powder developer, like ID-11, D76, Microdol-X, Perceptol etc.
We are not talking about life or death situations here.
If you fear a developer because of a now rare occurrence, then don't use it. There are plenty of others still out there, or you can even make your own xtol like developer.
I am just sick and tired of people trolling through photo.net, seeing a thread where one guy f*cked up his prize winning shot because he mixed xtol wrong or stored it wrong, and then forty more people chime in with useless babble about how they won't use it because of something that might or might not even happen.
If you cannot follow the directions on the bag and you are unwilling to use distilled water (which is not on the bag but it is in every frickin' thread about the ancient xtol failure), then get another developer. Find some pre-made liquid that does not require storage or any kind of mixing. Something like rodinal.
I can only speak from my experience with xtol. I've never had a problem. I mix it with distilled water. I stored it in 1 liter chemical bottles. I use it at 1+1 but have used it at 1+2 with zero problems. It is fantastic with just about any film I have tried and currently love it with TMY2.
I think your sentiment is right David, I have yet to hear of anyone who actually suffered from the almost mythical Xtol sudden death Syndrome.