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  1. #1
    Martin Aislabie's Avatar
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    Ilford MGFB with Gold Toner Problems

    Help/advice required please.

    Sadly, I have managed to ruin two Ilford MGFB prints in the process of Gold Toning them.

    Patches of emulsion have flaked off the paper base, on one print it just looks like it has a bad case of dandruff but on the other some of the flakes are larger – up to 5 x5 mm

    It hasn’t happened to most of my prints I have Gold Toned – but as luck would have it only on the 2 final prints I made of one particular photograph.

    I have been printing for a competition – so have been drying, examining and selecting the most suitable prints before proceeding to the next stage of the process.

    MGFM dev’d in MG Dev - 3mins
    Ilfostop @ 1+39 – 30sec
    Hypam Fixer @ 1+4 – 60sec
    Rinse under running cold tap – 60 sec
    Sodium Sulphite @ 20g/L – 10min
    Wash in cold water in an Archival Washer - 10 mins
    Air Dried

    Prints selected

    Soaked and held in a tray of 20C water – 20+mins
    Harman Selenium Toner @ 1+6 – 8 mins
    Rinse
    Sodium Sulphite @ 20g/L – 10min
    Wash in cold water in an Archival Washer - 10 mins
    Air Dried

    Prints selected

    Soaked and held in a tray of 20C water – 10+mins
    Tetenal Gold Toned – 10mins
    Rinse
    Hypam Fixer @ 1+4 – 60 sec
    Rinse
    Rinse under running cold tap – 60 sec
    Sodium Sulphite @ 20g/L – 10min
    Wash in cold water in an Archival Washer - 10 mins
    Air Dried


    Can anyone spot a flaw in my process?

    I cannot understand where I have gone wrong, as most prints have been exposed to the same process but were problem free

    Thanks

    Martin

  2. #2
    Marco B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Aislabie View Post
    Can anyone spot a flaw in my process?

    I cannot understand where I have gone wrong, as most prints have been exposed to the same process but were problem free

    Thanks

    Martin
    I don't see anything wrong with your process. I have mistreated Ilford and Kentmere fibre based papers far worse than this, for example by having had it soaked in water for over 24 hours because I was to lazy or late to tape them down for drying, or soak them in water of 40C for removing watercolor tape, and never had even a sign of beginning lift-off of emulsion.

    This is the second recent post I see reporting emulsion lift-off with Ilford paper. Maybe there has been one small bad, or at least not optimally hardened, batch of paper this year, that for the most part went unnoticed.

    Marco
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  3. #3

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    I have used Ilford MGFB paper for many years with no problems. I develop in Zone VI 1:3 2 1/2 - 3 min (occasionally in Selectol Soft for 1 min then in the ZoneVI for 2 min), then 30sec in acid stop, fix in Kodak Rapid Fix 2 min and in a second fix for 4 min, selenium toner mixed with hypo clearing sol until I see a slight shift in the mid tones, then hypo clearing sol 3 - 4 min and wash for 60 min. I don't gold tone but you may consider gold toning and not selenium toning to see if the same thing happens. I don't know what is gained by using both toners on a print. Both tend to add a blue-black to perhaps purple hue depending on the length of toning with the gold giving somewhat more permanence.
    Jeff

  4. #4
    Marco B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco B View Post
    This is the second recent post I see reporting emulsion lift-off with Ilford paper. Maybe there has been one small bad, or at least not optimally hardened, batch of paper this year, that for the most part went unnoticed.

    Marco
    I now noticed it was actually you, Martin, who reported that other issue as well, but that time with Ilford MGFB Warmtone:

    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/6...-problems.html

    I did notice in the thread linked below that the Hypam Fixer you are using is mentioned to be acidic:

    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum40/2...pam-fixer.html

    Don't know if it has anything to do with it (unlikely), but I am using a basic / neutral rapid fixer. Maybe trying a neutral / basic fixer might be an idea?

    Marco
    My website

    "The nineteenth century began by believing that what was reasonable was true, and it wound up by believing that what it saw a photograph of, was true." - William M. Ivins Jr.

    "I don't know, maybe we should disinvent color, and we could just shoot Black & White." - David Burnett in 1978

    "Analog is chemistry + physics, digital is physics + math, which ones did you like most?"

  5. #5

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    gold toning

    Hi Martin
    In your description you say you fixed after gold toning, there is no reason to do that, you have already fixed your prints in the first part of the process. This second fixing bath may be the cause of your problems. Try it without and see what happens. Let us know the result if you do.
    regards
    Alex

  6. #6
    Guillaume Zuili's Avatar
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    Hi Martin,
    You don't need to wash before selenium, a quick rinse is enough.
    But I would do a longer wash after selenium, at least 30 minutes to 45 minutes.
    Then gold. Fix and wash, again wash for 30 to 45 minutes.
    G.

  7. #7
    Guillaume Zuili's Avatar
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    Fixing after gold isn't an issue. But I wouldn't fix it in Hypam 1+4.
    Try 50g of sodium thiosulfate for one liter.

  8. #8

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    I'm suspicious of perma wash-like solutions as I have had bad experiences using it on RC paper - I have had experiences where emulsion goes soft and runs off the plastic. At the most, I will do a quick couple of dips. Maybe there's a correlation to fiber


    I wouldn't do a long wash after selenium

    Maybe using colder water will help...
    Last edited by WolfTales; 08-14-2009 at 12:14 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    I brake for fixer!

  9. #9
    bill spears's Avatar
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    Sounds like an emulsion problem but if I had to pick up on anything:

    No need to fix after gold toner.
    No need to hypo clear after gold toner. (only after selenium, as it contains traces of thiosulphate in it).
    Not sure about the 20g/L of sodium sulphite for the clearing bath - I generally use the Kodak packaged hypo clearing agent which
    I know consists mainly of sodium sulphite but the strength may be different ??

    I don't think there's anything here though that would cause emulsion lift. Only time I've ever seen this is when I've left gash prints or test strips lying in a trays of water for several days because I been too lazy to clear up after a session !!

  10. #10
    Martin Aislabie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco B View Post
    I now noticed it was actually you, Martin, who reported that other issue as well, but that time with Ilford MGFB Warmtone:

    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/6...-problems.html

    Marco
    Marco, I had an impressive amount of help from Ilford in helping to identify the problem with the Warm Tone Fibre.

    I will hold my hand up to that one - it was completely my fault - I was washing in water that was rather too warm and it softened the emulsion too much.

    As PE stated in a reply on the WT thread - best not to wash in water at temps above 25~30C.

    So I have modified my procedures to avoid similar mishaps.

    Martin

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