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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kershaw View Post
    Previous experiments with image tone using other developers have lead me to believe that a process sequence involving toning is generally a more effective way to control image tone than relying on the paper developer exclusively. e.g. If I process a warmtone emulsion in a fairly cool tone developer, when that print is placed in selenium toner, the warm characteristic will re-appear, and more neutral papers may not respond that dramatically to developer variance anyway.

    Tom

    Tom;

    You are 100% correct. I do the same and keep to a "one tone" developer leaving the rest to the toner itself. It is the toner I select.

    PE

  2. #12
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    I disagree 110%

    Back in the 80's I went on a workshop with the late Peter Goldfield, a trick he had (on a printing workshop) was to expose bits of Agfa Record Rapid in a test strip just to the enlarger light light source, stopped down well then cut the bits up and place in a tray of developer Agfa Neutol WA. He then plucked out a range of densities at various dev times, (can't remember now but roughly) 30 seconds, 60 seconds 90 seconds & 2 minutes, half then selenium toned, then all swabbed and compared by roughly equal densities. The difference in image colour was quite astonishing.

    The key is total mastery of the whole process and that means developer and how you use it and Selenium or Gold toning afterwards, (or another toner).

    A great many European printers use developers and exposure/development time to control image colour and tonality, this is only possible with Chloro-bromide papers, and the older Cadmium incorporated versions worked best, but late Record Rapid was still good as was MCC, another excellent paper that responded well to developer variations was Forte Polywarmtone.

    It's fair to say that Warm toned papers were not fashionable in the US in the 70's-90's, Ansel Adams and others like Paul Capronigro, Minor White etc shunned them, but in Europe it was very different and even Americans like Thomas Joshua Cooper have fully mastered warm-toned papers

    Ian

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    Forte made some truly awesome papers. Two-bath D72/D163 could send Polywarm all the way to olive green if exposed in a suitable manner, and all the silvery-greeny-browny-greys in between. Soft/hard was worthwhile also. And colour shifts weren't the whole story; primarily you got huge contrast control from the twin dev setup. Something like Eukobrom used 1+1 (powder) could produce blue shadows in Polygrade if hit hard enough. 'Proper' paper that actually behaved itself. I miss Forte.

    Seeing what could be achieved by developer manipulation alone was as mindblowing to me at the time as when I was first introduced to fstop printing and broke away from the millions of slavish 5-10-15-20-25-30 tests I'd been taught to do at college... so much wasted paper...

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    I disagree 110%

    Back in the 80's I went on a workshop with the late Peter Goldfield, a trick he had (on a printing workshop) was to expose bits of Agfa Record Rapid in a test strip just to the enlarger light light source, stopped down well then cut the bits up and place in a tray of developer Agfa Neutol WA. He then plucked out a range of densities at various dev times, (can't remember now but roughly) 30 seconds, 60 seconds 90 seconds & 2 minutes, half then selenium toned, then all swabbed and compared by roughly equal densities. The difference in image colour was quite astonishing.

    Ian
    Doesn't working with development times pose a danger of insufficiently developed emulsion?

    I agree that paper developer can be important; see my comment on the first page of this thread re response to gold toning.

    Tom

  5. #15
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kershaw View Post
    Doesn't working with development times pose a danger of insufficiently developed emulsion?
    Tom
    In theory yes, and in practice with Bromide emulsions very definitely, and this is what PE (Ron Mowrey) will agree with me on,

    But with Chlorobromide papers no, we can under-develop and use Selenium to bring the Dmax back, or just accept a slightly lower D-max. That's simplistic but it works.

    Actually under-exposing and very long development times were recommend by many companies to get greater image warmth, and Kodak were right up there with the rest of the companiws recommending these techniques. But they only work with appropriate papers, and after Kodak dropped Bromesko, there was only Ektalure left and you either hated in and were in the majority or were one of a small band od afficianados.

    Ian

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    Actually under-exposing and very long development times were recommend by many companies to get greater image warmth, and Kodak were right up there with the rest of the companiws recommending these techniques. But they only work with appropriate papers, and after Kodak dropped Bromesko, there was only Ektalure left and you either hated in and were in the majority or were one of a small band od afficianados.

    Ian
    As far as I know Ektalure was discontinued before I started using fibre base papers, however, I could have tried Polymax Fine Art but never got around to it.

    Tom

  7. #17
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    Polymax just about got to Ilford standards of quality.

    Kodak's problem was they kept changing papers almost every 6 months, it probably wasn't quite like that but that's what it seemed back then. So few people bought Kodak. (In the UK).

    Ian

  8. #18
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    Varying development time with todays modern Cl/Br and Cl emulsions runs the risk of overdevelopment with little change in tonality at the price of fog or other variability.

    I have to agree with Tom that the less risky and more repeatable route is via constant development in a single developer and then toning after a constant tail end process. This will give a constant batch-to-batch repeatability of image tones. It can even be duplicated across paper types with much less "fiddling" with the parameters.

    PE

  9. #19
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    FWIW, almost all of my printing is done using Polymax Developer and RC paper. It gives me good neutral tone on Ilford and Oriental and Kodak neutral tone paper, warm tone on Ilford warm tone paper and, not surprisingly, cool tone on Ilford cool tone paper.

    I don't see any objectionable colour casts. The cool tone and warm tone papers respond reasonably well to Selenium toning, while the neutral tone paper hardly responds at all.

    It is also convenient to use, and economical.

    Was that what the OP was originally asking ?

    Matt

  10. #20

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    ^_^ It has got quite a long way o/t!

    I have used liquid Dektol and I obviously home brew D72. I was able to get similar places, but the liquid stuff was way more expensive. Surprise surprise. Maybe it was a little colder, but that would pretty much stack with the different components. I certainly wouldn't have called it a 'cold' developer, nothing like Eukobrom.

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