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  1. #11
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    For Rodinal fans:

    In 1910 the Agfa handbook of Formulae etc says:

    In connection with the use of "Agfa Rodinal" the following remarks should be carefully noted:

    In addition to neutrai sulphite and water "Agfa Rodinal" contains only an alkaline salt of Paramidophenol, but no excess of caustic alkali.


    The method of manufacturing the developing agent was Patented so it was no secret.

    LP Clerc gives a formula for making Rodinal in his 1938 book where an alkaline salt of p-Aminohenol is made, precipitated & filtered it's the re-dissolved in the minimum amount of NaOH it takes to dissolve it and Sulphite added. On an industrial scale that was how Rodinal once used to be made. Of course we don't know how Agfa adapted the formula over the years but the biggest changes were made when Agfa (West Germany) re-formulated the product and probably changed the original manufacturing process and raw chemistry.

    My copy of Clerc is in the UK or I'd post the formula.

    Alternative formulae use p-Aminophenol hydrochloride or in Kodak's case the oxalate, Kodak sold both the hydrochloride form & the oxalate as Kodelon.

    Rodinal equivalents were made by Ilford "Certinal", May & Baker and other large photo chemistry manufacturers.

    Ian

    Rodinal contains 3 ingredients and is trivial to make. IDK what the big fuss is. You should be able to reproduce this formula out of memory Ian and publish it here.

    PE

  2. #12

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    So how does this relate to Mr. Gainer's Rodinal like developer from metol?
    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum223/...per-metol.html

  3. #13
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Rodinal contains 3 ingredients and is trivial to make. IDK what the big fuss is. You should be able to reproduce this formula out of memory Ian and publish it here.

    PE
    Rodinal originally wasn't made from the free base & involved precipitating the free base first than re-dissolving it.

    At one point Agfa were owned by IG Farben and the formulae probably changed when p-Aminophenol (free base) became commercially vailable.

    Yes I could put a formula online that would be very close to the RO9, pre-WWII version that's still made by Calbe but it's not the same as modern Rodina;.

    There are at least 5 ingredients in Rodinal not 3 and we have no idea what the 5th, the anti-foggant is, or how sighnificantly Agfa (West Germany) improved the formula.

    There's already too many speculative formulae purporting to be Rodinal to go adding another.

    Ian

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim_bessell View Post
    So how does this relate to Mr. Gainer's Rodinal like developer from metol?
    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum223/...per-metol.html

    I have not tried it but it appears rather complex with a filtration step.

    Rodinal, IIRC, did not require filtration.

    PE

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    Rodinal originally wasn't made from the free base & involved precipitating the free base first than re-dissolving it.

    At one point Agfa were owned by IG Farben and the formulae probably changed when p-Aminophenol (free base) became commercially vailable.

    Yes I could put a formula online that would be very close to the RO9, pre-WWII version that's still made by Calbe but it's not the same as modern Rodina;.

    There are at least 5 ingredients in Rodinal not 3 and we have no idea what the 5th, the anti-foggant is, or how sighnificantly Agfa (West Germany) improved the formula.

    There's already too many speculative formulae purporting to be Rodinal to go adding another.

    Ian
    Ian;

    There are indeed quite a few formulas, but if you properly label it with your disclaimers, I believe it would be a benefit. You should post it. One that I saw had an egregious outright error in it, ending up being much larger in volume than specified in the ingredients. I could only guess at the correct action to take to fix it.

    Go ahead, post it for all of us!

    PE
    Last edited by Photo Engineer; 08-18-2009 at 11:10 AM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: spelling

  6. #16

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    hi ian

    it helps TONS!
    thanks ...

    john

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    Only bought the book last night John, I won't get it for a while as it'll go to my UK address, and I've no idea when I'll actually get to see the books unless I can persuade someone to bring them over to Turkey.

    I do have most of the Agfa formulae already including Agfa 130, but I've not been able to cross check it as of yet. Agfa 130 is one of the handful of developers that is quite different in formulae & type between Agfa-Ansco in the US and Agfa/Orwo in Gernany:

    AGFA / ORWO 130

    Metol 2.5 g
    Sodium Sulphite (anhyd) 30 g
    Hydroquinone 7 g
    Sodium Carbonate (anhyd) 30 g
    Potassium Bromide 1 g

    Water to make 1 litre


    AGFA -ANSCO 130

    Metol 2.5 g
    Sodium Sulphite (anhyd) 30 g
    Hydroquinone 11 g
    Sodium Carbonate (anhyd) 67.5 g
    Potassium Bromide 5.5 g
    Glycin 11.0 g
    Water to make 1 litre

    For use dilute 1+1. Development times 2 - 6 min.

    hope that helps

    ian

  7. #17

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    Abbreviated from L.P.Clerc 1937 reprinted 1946 p262:
    Concentrated Paraminophenol Developer of the Rodinal Type(J.Desalme 1913)
    A.Dissolve 75g paraminophenol hydrochloride in 600 to 700 cc hot water and filter if necessary.
    B.Dissolve 10g sodium sulphite and 35g dry sodium carbonate in 200 cc tepid water.
    Add B to A. This produces a precipitate of the free base which is filtered on a cloth after cooling.Drain the paste so it does not occupy a bulk of more than 300 cc and add to it 100 cc of liquid sodium bisulphite of density 35 degrees Be,and then,little by little,soda lye of density 40 degrees Be until the precipitate has completely dissolved.
    Then a very small quantity of the bisulphite is again added to obtain a persisting precipitate.
    Add water to bring up the total to 500 cc.Filter,divide into a number of hermetically sealed bottles.
    For use this concentrated developer is diluted with 20 to 30 times its volume with water.
    Note. Clerc also gives the formula in grains but his conversion factor of grams to grains differs from one substance to another and appears unreliable.Considering the object is only to make p-aminophenol free base the exact weight is probably not important.

  8. #18
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    Well, Alan, thanks but I wanted to get Ian's version.

    In any event, can you translate Baume into concentration? I cannot find a conversion table and have tried.

    PE

  9. #19
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    C'Mon Ian Pleasssse...

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlibersky View Post
    C'Mon Ian Pleasssse...
    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Well, Alan, thanks but I wanted to get Ian's version.

    In any event, can you translate Baume into concentration? I cannot find a conversion table and have tried.

    PE
    OK, I'm on the case

    As Alan & Ron have mentioned one problem is that without knowing exact Baume/Secific gravities etc it's difficult to get the exact proportions.

    One thing we do know is that Rodinal is Carbonate free, so any formula containing Carbonate isn't close but may well be similar to Agfa's other P-Aminohenol formula R10, which unlike Rodinal has been published officially.

    Ian

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