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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by RalphLambrecht View Post
    Trust me, there is no highlight compression in the actual prints. Anyway, the improvement in the shadows is significant. Even in these scans, the degration of the highlights is minor. The point was not to make a habit of it, the point was the latitude towards overexposure.
    It's been a quarter century since I've shot and processed B&W for the shear joy of making fine prints. Overexposure and underdevelopment were part of my process along with selenium toning the film to extend highlight details more linearly than with development alone. Shadow details were excellent and highlights were open and very textured. I also selenium toned the prints which had a similar effect... darkening shadows without blocking them. I'm not against overexposure... just the sacrifice of highlight detail... unless those aren't present to begin with.

    Film was Agfapan 25 and 100 processed in Rodinal 1:50 (usually). Paper was Ilford Gallery DW fiber (grade 2 or 3 with the latter prefered) developed on Phenidol?... whatever Ilford's phenidone-base developer was called... and selenium toned for density and color.

    And I still say I can see a little highlight compression in those examples.
    Last edited by Mike1234; 01-03-2010 at 01:01 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius Glass View Post
    OK, we are on the same page then. I can put 12 stops on the film, but I cannot put 12 stops and then over expose by 8 stops.

    Steve
    Well, the exposure range of B&W negative film is 15 stops or more. Taking an average scene of 7 stops you can afford at least 8 stops in overexposure.
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielStone View Post
    so Ralph,

    when you overexpose sooooooo much(6 stops in this case),

    how do you factor development? I mean, its kind of hard to pull 6 stops in development....

    -Dan
    I try not to, but sometimes the light does.
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    All you nay sayers are missing the point here.

    The OP CAN'T adjust the exposure reliably.

    I'm with Ralph, any of the listed negative films will be quite printable, even with huge over-exposures.

    Would they be better close to their box speed? Probably, but so what.
    I didn't miss any point anywhere I was just being a D**K about unqualified statements like 8 stops of overexposure is fine. Well if it really is over exposure (like 8 stops over the point where you have optimum shadow detail) and your scene is not one tone, it actually has a pretty good range to start with - then 8 stops is not "fine". Black and white film is fantastic in it's ability to put a huge range of EV on the negative but it does have a DMAX and a significant amount of typical scenes you might be shooting will reach that point easily if you really truly overexpose by 8 stops. Translation for the non-technical - if you really truly "overexpose" by 8 stops you will more likely than not actually block a significant amount of highlight values.

    RB

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    All you nay sayers are missing the point here.

    The OP CAN'T adjust the exposure reliably.

    I'm with Ralph, any of the listed negative films will be quite printable, even with huge over-exposures.

    Would they be better close to their box speed? Probably, but so what.
    Exactly. We understand each other.
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwboyer View Post
    Well - that is what somebody suggested that 8 stops OVEREXPOSURE is fine.

    RB
    Not fine, but the film can handle it, no probs.
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1234 View Post
    It's been a quarter century since I've shot and processed B&W for the shear joy of making fine prints. Overexposure and underdevelopment were part of my process along with selenium toning the film to extend highlight details more linearly than with development alone. Shadow details were excellent and highlights were open and very textured. I also selenium toned the prints which had a similar effect... darkening shadows without blocking them. I'm not against overexposure... just the sacrifice of highlight detail... unless those aren't present to begin with.

    Film was Agfapan 25 and 100 processed in Rodinal 1:50 (usually). Paper was Ilford Gallery DW fiber (grade 2 or 3 with the latter prefered) developed on Phenidol?... whatever Ilford's phendone-base developer was called... and selenium toned for density and color.

    And I still say I can see a little highlight compression in those examples.
    Mike

    Don't be fooled by looking at scans on your monitor, which might be different than mine. You need to see the prints.
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by RalphLambrecht View Post
    Mike... Don't be fooled by looking at scans on your monitor, which might be different than mine. You need to see the prints.
    If they were scanned separately you certainly have a point but if they were scanned simultaneously side-by-side then they definitely differ, IMHO. I'm not trying to argue but if they were scanned together then I can see the tonal compression in the highlights. However, I DON'T disagree that negative film can often be grossly overexposed and still make nice-looking prints. Or are you saying you scanned the film and not the prints... different story there.

    BTW, if one is scanning and printing digitally PS Curves can really work magic if one knows how to use that tool.
    Last edited by Mike1234; 01-03-2010 at 01:09 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwboyer View Post
    I didn't miss any point anywhere...
    I'm afraid, you did if you call my statement unqualified.

    Quote Originally Posted by rwboyer View Post
    ...Translation for the non-technical - if you really truly "overexpose" by 8 stops you will more likely than not actually block a significant amount of highlight values.
    No you won't. 7 stops of subject brightness range + 8 stops of overexposure = 15 stops of required film exposure range. Many B&W negative film can give you that easily unless you develop them to roll off the highlights.
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1234 View Post
    If they were scanned separately you certainly have a point but if they were scanned simultaneously side-by-side then they definitely differ, IMHO. I'm not trying to argue but if they were scanned together then I can see the tonal compression in the highlights. However, I DON'T disagree that negative film can often be grossly overexposed and still make nice-looking prints.

    BTW, if one is scanning and printing digitally PS Curves can really work magic if one knows how to use that tool.
    They were scanned separately. My scanner is not that big.
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

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