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  1. #21
    sandermarijn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhulsman View Post
    Sander,
    I use fomapan100 in 8x10 format, never seen such scratches yet.
    I can develop a film for you if you want.

    Mike
    Thanks a lot for the offer Mike. I will send you a PM.

  2. #22
    sandermarijn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leicam5 View Post
    I had the same problem, although the water I use is severely filtered!
    The origin of these ‘scratches’ is mechanical, the so called pressure fog. It is due to the friction caused by rolling on the film after it was exposed, wether it be 120 roll or 35 mm film, or the film sliding over the film guiding rolls in the camera. It is typical for Foma, thus the camera is not to blame (what I thought before). The protective layer on the emulsion side is, to say at least, not one of the best.
    That's very interesting new input! If I understand correctly, you mention two possible causes for the marks, both with a root cause in something called 'pressure fog': 1. too much friction during the rolling up of the exposed film, 2. too much friction between film and guiding rolls.
    Do I figure correctly that you did not find a solution? Me personally I don't see how I could prevent either cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by leicam5 View Post
    There is an other issue that is typical for Fompan : when using plastic reels, to develop the film, there are scratches on both sides, along the film’s length, and on the image. Plastic reels are about double as large as the SS ones. A tanning developer tends to worsen that.
    It is really painful to see your photo’s ruined like this!
    I shoot Tri-X now and all the troubles went away…
    Philippe
    Yes Philippe, it's a bit shitty to loose film. But if the problem is eventually solved then I will mind quite a bit less.

    I don't entirely understand how you mean the plastic rails come into play. I do use plastic rails (Paterson), so I am quite interested in your thoughts. Can you elaborate?

  3. #23

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    Interesting. I use this film in three different tlrs, a graflex roll back, mamiya roll back, pentacon six, and three different folders. I have never had any of the scratches you have. Pressure scratches seem like a possibility. When the Pentacon Six is loaded correctly, the film is very tight (tighter than any of the other cameras/backs I use) and still never any scratches. Maybe check the interior of your camera, a rough edge that the film rolls over might cause the scratches.

    Here's a thought. How do you load your reels? Do you remove the paper backing before you load the reel or just let it hang until all the film is in the reel, then tear the paper off (like I do)? I agree the emulsion is quite soft so maybe if the film brushes against the edge of your table, fingers, etc. it could show up as scratches. This is kind of wierd. I have used this film pretty much since Freestyle started to carry it as their arista brand, and it has never done this. I did have a bad bunch of film when it first came out. The emulsion had a lot of little dots on it after processing. This site had a thread on it, so I checked the emulsion number on my film, and sure enough, it was the faulty stuff. Freestyle took it back and replaced it no questions asked. It had been sitting in my freezer for almost a year too.
    Rick Jason.
    "I'm still developing"

  4. #24
    sandermarijn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricksplace View Post
    Maybe check the interior of your camera, a rough edge that the film rolls over might cause the scratches.
    I've exposed a film in two different cameras now, so it seems unlikely that the camera is to blame. I don't entirely understand Philippe's post about how the camera may cause the scratches. Maybe he can clarify because it does sound interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksplace View Post
    Here's a thought. How do you load your reels? Do you remove the paper backing before you load the reel or just let it hang until all the film is in the reel, then tear the paper off (like I do)? I agree the emulsion is quite soft so maybe if the film brushes against the edge of your table, fingers, etc. it could show up as scratches.
    I do basically the same as you I think. I put the full spool in an old camera (Agfa Clack, back removed of course) and put that between my knees whilst sitting on a chair. Then I gradually pull out the film with the backing dangling loose and wind it onto the reel which is on a table. There is some distance between me and the table, so that the film is not contact with anything apart from air until it is fully in the reel. I use scissors to cut off the remaining paper. Short story: the film does not contact anything so no culprit here I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksplace View Post
    This is kind of wierd. I have used this film pretty much since Freestyle started to carry it as their arista brand, and it has never done this. I did have a bad bunch of film when it first came out. The emulsion had a lot of little dots on it after processing. This site had a thread on it, so I checked the emulsion number on my film, and sure enough, it was the faulty stuff. Freestyle took it back and replaced it no questions asked. It had been sitting in my freezer for almost a year too.
    I am thinking of a production error, but I can't ever be sure of that of course. Hence my question to Dutch APUG-ers to help me out (got response now). The batch number of my films is 016756-1, exp. date 2/2012. Got it from Silverprint in the UK last December.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandermarijn View Post
    That's very interesting new input! If I understand correctly, you mention two possible causes for the marks, both with a root cause in something called 'pressure fog': 1. too much friction during the rolling up of the exposed film, 2. too much friction between film and guiding rolls.
    Do I figure correctly that you did not find a solution? Me personally I don't see how I could prevent either cause.



    Yes Philippe, it's a bit shitty to loose film. But if the problem is eventually solved then I will mind quite a bit less.

    I don't entirely understand how you mean the plastic rails come into play. I do use plastic rails (Paterson), so I am quite interested in your thoughts. Can you elaborate?
    It’s quit simple, when the film is in use and left for a few days in the camera, one of the rolls is still pressing the film against the edge of the camera’s frame, then a mark might occur.
    This happens, in an other way although, particularly in the Linhof Technica 617. There, a thin steel roll is pressing the film against the rubber cylinder (connected to the frame counter).
    But, again, this is very seldom and, as I said, the most of the cameras are NOT to blame, because it does not happen with other brands of film!
    And, not only when the film is passive. When the film is transported, it ‚slides’ via the transporting system, over the guiders, the pressure plate, the camera frame and finally comes in to friction with the backing paper when rolled up.
    In a certain sense, it occurs the other way around too, when unrolling the film for processing, then, even the fingernails can scratch the emulsion, what happened to me.

    The reels, I used to work with, are the JOBO 2500 ones. They have something like really ‚wide lips’ at the beginning, and, believe me, they do scratch Foma film; again, other brands of film are not showing this issue!

    It is the lack of a good protective layer on the emulsion that is causing the problem, and, IMHO, the rather rough and stiff backing paper as used in conjunction with Foma roll-films.
    What I did not tell, and apologise me fort this forgetting, is that my experiences are solely with 120 roll film.

    Philippe
    "...If you can not stand the rustle of the leafs, then do not go in to the woods..."
    (freely translated quote by Guido Gezelle)

    PS: English is only my third language, please do forgive me my sloppy grammar...

  6. #26
    sandermarijn's Avatar
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    Thanks for the clarification Philippe, I see what you mean now. I think I can discard the camera as a cause, having used two different cameras that both do not give problems with other films. It may still be that Fomapan is simply unusually vulnerable, but then more users should be having the exact same problem. And I don't believe that I am an over-average-rough handler of film.

    Mike suggested that I develop a film that never saw a camera at all. That's a good idea and I will give it a try, just to be safe on this matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by leicam5 View Post
    They have something like really ‚wide lips’ at the beginning, and, believe me, they do scratch Foma film; again, other brands of film are not showing this issue!
    My Paterson reels have tiny 'lips'. I once used reels with thicker (wider) lips and those gave rise to local turbulence (I presume) and uneven development. The thin reels protrude inward so little that they could never even scratch the edge of the film, let alone the centre, which in my case is also crawling with marks.

    Quote Originally Posted by leicam5 View Post
    It is the lack of a good protective layer on the emulsion that is causing the problem, and, IMHO, the rather rough and stiff backing paper as used in conjunction with Foma roll-films.
    The roughness and stiffness of the backing paper were the first things that occurred to me when I opened my first Foma 100-120 film. It also feels thicker, but that could not be the case of course- probably just illusion.

    When one winds the film forward then the rough back of the paper touches the film. This may be a problem, but I don't really believe it. I've heard of nobody to confirm this as a problem, so probably not something that contributes to my scratches.

    Quote Originally Posted by leicam5 View Post
    What I did not tell, and apologise me fort this forgetting, is that my experiences are solely with 120 roll film.
    I am dealing with the same format here.

  7. #27
    sandermarijn's Avatar
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    An APUG member from the same town where I live has offered to develop a film exposed by me in my camera. This may take some time but it will be interesting to see the results. I will update this thread with the results when they arrive.

  8. #28

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    Why not unspool a fresh roll before putting it in the camera and cut off the first few inches of film and inspect it to see if it has the scratches before developing. If no scratches, then develop it. If still no scratches then you know its the camera. Otherwise, you'll see its either on the film from the get go, or caused by developing.

  9. #29
    Andrew Moxom's Avatar
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    that's a good idea.... but take the film, and just process/fix it without exposing it and see if the anomalies are there.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfoo View Post
    Why not unspool a fresh roll before putting it in the camera and cut off the first few inches of film and inspect it to see if it has the scratches before developing. If no scratches, then develop it. If still no scratches then you know its the camera. Otherwise, you'll see its either on the film from the get go, or caused by developing.
    Please check out my website www.amoxomphotography.com and APUG Portfolio .....

  10. #30
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfoo View Post
    Why not unspool a fresh roll before putting it in the camera and cut off the first few inches of film and inspect it to see if it has the scratches before developing. If no scratches, then develop it. If still no scratches then you know its the camera. Otherwise, you'll see its either on the film from the get go, or caused by developing.
    You'd need to cut the last few inches not the first because the film is taped at the start.

    Ian

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