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  1. #1
    Rlibersky's Avatar
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    Developer Incorporated Paper

    I was going through my collection of “Darkroom & Creative Camera Techniques” when I came across a question in the Photo Chemistry section. See Attached PDF.

    A couple of questions (based on Robert Chapman’s response)

    1. Were developer incorporated papers made for the press and speed of processing?
    2. Has anyone tried putting the paper in alkaline solution? What were the results?
    3. Can they be washed out of the paper if presoaked? For how long?
    4. Are there papers today that have a developer incorporated?
    5. Why would papers need to have the developer incorporated today?
    Attached Files

  2. #2
    richard ide's Avatar
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    I used some Agfa stabilization materials around 1980 so will try to give you some answers.
    1. they were primarily used for speed and convenience where a long lasting image was not required as in art prep for printing.
    2. The activator solution was very alkaline; as in finger dissolving. ;<) I could take a sheet of film and pass it through the solution and into stop bath without pause and it would have a Dmax of 4+.
    3. I see no point in doing this as the material should develop in regular chemistry. Also any paper or film would be quite old. You would also wash out the citric acid or whatever was used to prevent autodevelopment.
    4. AFAIK this is not being made today. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
    Richard

    Why are there no speaker jacks on a stereo camera?

  3. #3
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Many modern papers contain incorporated developers. They are easily tested for activity and level by fogging the paper and adding a drop of strong alkali. Low levels or weak developers in the paper will allow it to brown or darken quickly, and high levels cause immediate heavy blackening. No incorporated developer leaves the paper a normal white or sometimes light buff colored.

    These incorporated developers were not just present in some papers, they were used in general practice to give faster development times or to cause certain development effects.

    PE

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    Rick A's Avatar
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    I have a pile of Kodabrome II RC that is developer incorporated, works wonderfully. I use Dektol 1+2 and 90 secs dev time its useful time as per kodak is 90-120 sec to full dev.

    Rick

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    Rlibersky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Many modern papers contain incorporated developers. They are easily tested for activity and level by fogging the paper and adding a drop of strong alkali. Low levels or weak developers in the paper will allow it to brown or darken quickly, and high levels cause immediate heavy blackening. No incorporated developer leaves the paper a normal white or sometimes light buff colored.

    These incorporated developers were not just present in some papers, they were used in general practice to give faster development times or to cause certain development effects.

    PE
    Would it be useful to wash out the developer?

  6. #6
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Very few current papers (I don't know of any) are developer incorporated, Ilford stopped producing the developer incorporated versions of Ilfospeed/Multigrade quite a few years ago, and we all know Kodak stopped theirs too

    It was an hidden fact that the early Ilfospeed papers could be processed using the Ilfoprint Activator/Stabiliser machines and I used one for a few years, I mixed up an Activator from scratch NaOH, some sulphite and KBr, and used Hypam instead of stabiliser. The sulphite & KBr were needed to prevent base foggingg in the activator.

    The reasons for Developer incorporation were to improve speed of processing and allow very short development times, but with almost no large scale B&W print processing left there's no need.

    There were disadvantages because you couldn't use processing techniques like soft working or contrast developers to to vary print contrast on the fixed grade papers.

    Ian

  7. #7
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    In spite of their words to the contrary, Ilford MGIV paper tests medium positive for incorporated developing agent(s). It is not useful to wash a developing agent out as other useful chemistry might go as well.

    PE

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    Is it possible that they aren't specifically incorporating developing agents, but that some of the other chemistry happens to carry a medium (or weak, or whatever) development effect? Not that it matters, I'm just curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    Very few current papers (I don't know of any) are developer incorporated...

    ...the early Ilfospeed papers could be processed using the Ilfoprint Activator/Stabiliser machines... I mixed up an Activator from scratch NaOH, some sulphite and KBr, and used Hypam instead of stabiliser. The sulphite & KBr were needed to prevent base foggingg in the activator.

    The reasons for Developer incorporation were to improve speed of processing and allow very short development times, but with almost no large scale B&W print processing left there's no need.

    There were disadvantages because you couldn't use processing techniques like soft working or contrast developers to to vary print contrast on the fixed grade papers.

    Ian
    PE & zumbido have beaten me to the send button... (see below for clarification)

    Ian, could you describe this "base fogging"... Did the reverse side brown?

    It sounds like what Ian and Robert describe are better called Stabilization Papers...
    PE noted before that one Ilford paper "passed" his "ID or Not" test... to which Simon of Harman clearly stated no Ilford (Harman) paper had ID... PE described his test, some thought too strong a pH was being used and the topic died down... there was never any clear resolution as far as I remember, other than a hint that something other than ID might be responsable....

    I am curious to hear about Ian's base fogging in this context, but in any case, for actual use to get development without a tradtional "developing solution", I don't see why a pH any higher than that of a normal developer should be needed in ID testing... unless the agent incorporated, had a poor developing potential, which might have a certain usefulness....

    Another disadvantage might have been the stability of such papers.
    Last edited by Ray Rogers; 01-25-2010 at 12:36 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  10. #10
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zumbido View Post
    Is it possible that they aren't specifically incorporating developing agents, but that some of the other chemistry happens to carry a medium (or weak, or whatever) development effect? Not that it matters, I'm just curious.
    Very likely, Ilford have stated very clearly that MGIV isn't developer incorporated. It cn't be processed in an Activator solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
    PE & zumbido have beaten me to the send button... (see below for clarification)

    Ian, could you describe this "base fogging"... Did the reverse side brown?

    It sounds like what Ian and Robert describe are better called Stabilization Papers...
    PE noted before that one Ilford paper "passed" his "ID or Not" test... to which Simon of Harman clearly stated no Ilford (Harman) paper had ID... PE described his test, some thought too strong a pH was being used and the topic died down... there was never any clear resolution as far as I remember, other than a hint that something other than ID might be responsable....

    I am curious to hear about Ian's base fogging in this context, but in any case, for actual use to get development without a tradtional "developing solution", I don't see why a pH any higher than that of a normal developer should be needed in ID testing... unless the agent incorporated, had a poor developing potential, which might have a certain usefulness....

    Another disadvantage might have been the stability of such papers.
    For high speed processing Activators use Hydroxide and a high pH, typically developing in a few seconds, I think my Ilford machine took under 15 seconds seconds to process a print, about 3-5 in the activator

    The fogging came from having no restrainer or a sulphite and was a base gray chemical fogging, commercial activators contain Sulphite & usually bromide, but my first test were with plain NaOH.

    But for normal tray use then a lower pH is of course fine.

    Ian

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