Today's film IS better.

[CBG]

One might think that today's films are too good - for some purposes.

[i40west]

So, what's not to like?

The thing I don't like about T-Max is the tonality, the way the highlights look. It lacks the smooth shoulder that you get with Tri-X.

Having said that, I haven't tried the latest iteration of T-Max 400, and I don't know how much it's changed over the years. I developed my dislike for its highlight rendering quite a long time ago, early '90s at the latest.

[df cardwell]

"So, in that sense TMY-2 is more like the old films in terms of tonality than something like Tri-X with it's S-curve?"

"The thing I don't like about T-Max is the tonality, the way the highlights look. It lacks the smooth shoulder that you get with Tri-X"

Here's the deal. TMY CAN give a straightline of 14+ stops. Totally linear.

TMY CAN give a nice gentle shoulder beginning at Zone VI, or starting up at Zone VIII.

TMY CAN give an upswept curve like old Portrait Pan or TXP.

And, TMY CAN give an S curve. (and Tri-X is not limited to an S-curve, either !)

It depends on what WE do. Different developers give different results. Different agitation patterns will fine tune the results.

The reason beginners often HATE it is because you need to be more exact with temperature and time. Not brain-surgery close, but within 20% either way ! Beginners HATE it because if you are changing developers every weekend, you'll never get it under control.

BUT, you can do almost anything you want with it. NO, you can't get golf ball sized grain, but TMZ will.

XTOL and D-76 won't give you acutance effects. Rodinal will. FX-2 and Pyrocat REALLY will. Same film, different developer.

Edwal 12 will give you a TXP curve AND fine, fine, grain. This means 16x20s from 35 mm film, with regular grain that is delicate and unobtrusive. You need some skill, but not much.

The point is what folks tend to dislike about TMY lies in their technique, and it can be remedied.

NOT ALL OLD films were alike. There was intentional diversity in design in the Kodak catalog, because different pictures need different film curves. But the flexibility built into the 3 T-grain films allows the competent photographer to custom make any film they need.

Ansel Adams used to say that it took a serious student, with good direction, 15 years to master photography.

Much like a piano or violin.

Just because we use 'old technology' instead of Photoshop, don't believe there isn't a lot to learn. But in photography, a little effort is hugely rewarded. We are each the limiting factor of our images, not the film. And with today's extraordinary film -which are nearly limitless -what we can do with just a few films in our bag. (never mentioned Acros or the Deltas !)

.

[jnanian]

i haven't used tmy2 yet but i love the grain of tmy1 brewed in coffee and ansco 130
it is absolutely beautiful.

as sensei don suggests,
practice makes perfect
john

[clayne]

Darkroom Legend #12 !

Tonal rendering depends ONLY on exposure and development. You can get the same tonality from any appropriate combination of film and developer.

Okay, I'll bite: duplicate the tonality of APX in Rodinal for me. Let's hear it.

[BetterSense]

Tonal rendering depends ONLY on exposure and development. You can get the same tonality from any appropriate combination of film and developer.

For that matter you can mimic any film whatsoever with digital imaging. You might be able to mimic TXP very well with some other film, but that doesn't make it TXP.

[Athiril]

I'll stick with Shanghai GP3 mainly.

Though I do enjoy FP4, Delta 3200 and Pan F 50, if only Neopan 1600 was available in 120.. I'm also onto the Tri-X 400 though.

[i40west]

Edwal 12 will give you a TXP curve AND fine, fine, grain. This means 16x20s from 35 mm film, with regular grain that is delicate and unobtrusive. You need some skill, but not much.

Okay, I've never heard of Edwal 12, but Photographer's Formulary claims to have an equivalent. For $15 a liter, but still.

Does it really change the curve of TMY that much? I'm having a heck of a time finding example images -- Flickr produces 10 results, which isn't enough of a sample to know if the photographer knows what he's doing...

EDIT: and those results all seem to be Edwal fg7, not Edwal 12. So, no luck there at all.

[Ian Grant]

The original Adox films were actually among the first "thin emulsion" films, and not really what people are pointing to when they talk about the "old silver rich emulsions." The best way to see what these films are like is to invest in a few rolls of film and see for yourself. I like Efke 100, but don't particularly care for 25 or 50, which are more like orthochromatic emulsions. It's all a matter of taste. The attraction of a thin emulsion film is better resolution.

The last of the "thick emulsion" films was Super-XX. It wasn't as sharp as the thin emulsion films, but the spectral sensitivity was unique, so it was a very good film for color separations, and landscape photographers thought it made the sky light up, because of the way it responded to blue, and because of the crisp clear way that it responded to filters, but that isn't related to the "thick emulsion" aspect. The thick emulsion gave the film a very long straight line curve for good tonal separation in all ranges, and plenty of headroom for expansion development, so in very flat light you could extend development as far as +3 or +4 and get more contrast on film, or it could be easily developed to a higher density range for alternative processes. Michael A. Smith and Paula Chamlee are devotees of Super-XX, having bought out the last of Kodak's stock and kept it in cold storage. I have some in the freezer in 4x5" and 8x10" that I use occasionally for landscapes, and it is indeed a special film.

Very true, Adox.EFKE films were the cutting edge technology of the 50's and way ahead of competitors in many ways.

The last of the common old technology films were actiually Forte, based on old Kodak technology, so more similar to Super-XX

Ian

[Tom Kershaw]

Ian,

Assuming good quality control, do you think the "thick" emulsion films such as Kodak Super-XX would still have a place in the market today?

Tom