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  1. #1

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    Getting a warm tone out of ARISTA.EDU paper

    A bit long, but please read (question is in bold):

    I made my first batch of prints from the ARISTA.EDU paper today, switching from AGFA multicontrast. Although I developed the paper in Neutol WA, it retained a very neutral image tone, contrary to the AGFA paper, which had a mild warm black that I really like.

    Now you may be asking, why did I switch from the AGFA paper if I like it so much? A variety of reasons, money being the main one. I decided to drop Adorama as my main source of material after I had a few problems with them, ranging from darkroom trays not matching the description, to them shipping a 125ml bottle of Rodinal instead of a 1250ml bottle of Neutol WA. The latter problem was fixed, but it cost me a week of printing (I run a tight schedule, and have little free time to print). I then discovered Freestyle, which has proved cheaper on many items, and has cheaper shipping as well.

    Unfortunately, 11x14 AGFA paper is more expensive at Freestyle than Adorama, and twice as much as the 11x14 .EDU paper. Being as short on cash as I am, the .EDU paper was the obvious choice.

    But now I'm back to a neutral tone paper...

    So here's my question: What can I do to get a warmer tone out of this paper, which I believe is the same as Forte fiber (but not Forte Warm, or Elegance)? Soon I will have to buy more developer, and I'm considering LPD for it's low cost (7 bucks for a gallon) and long life.

    I've looked at toners, and they are out of the question. Most require Potassium Ferracyanide, a chemical that will never enter my darkroom, and none make sense in an economical point of view.

    So I'm left with developers and whatever else I haven't thought of yet. I'm totally opposed to mixing my own developer, but would much rather buy the powder ready to go. Does LPD give a warmer tone than Neutol WA? Is there Photog's Formulary alternative? PF 130? PF 106?

    Overall I'm pleased with the .EDU paper, and the way things are going, Forte paper will be around longer than AGFA, making Forte, JandC, and .EDU good options if I want to standardize on paper.


    Thanks in advance for the help,

  2. #2
    ann
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    try super platiumun at 1:15. it is amazing when compared to other "warm tone"
    developers"
    if you already have LPD, try it at 1:6 or even higher, which will increase the warmth.

    106 is a tanning developer, which is beyond what your description indicates.
    130 at high dilutions will warm up.
    I don't use Agfa papers (since they stop making Brovia) so i don't know what the
    "look" will be; however all of those mentioned at the higher ratios will warm up the print.

  3. #3
    Les McLean's Avatar
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    Add 15ml of a 10% solution of Bromide to your developer and it will warm up the print. Increase print exposure by 3/4 of a stop and reduce development by 50% to warm up the print but it will also reduce contrast.

  4. #4

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    Les-

    I want to make sure I understand your suggestion correctly.

    are you describing 2 options:
    1- the 10% bromide
    2- the exp/dev changes (which i have done to reduce contrast on graded paper once ot twice but hadnt noticed a tone change, but I wasn't looking for one so I may have missed)

    or do you have to perform all three steps?


    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by ann
    try super platiumun at 1:15. it is amazing when compared to other "warm tone"
    developers".
    I have never heard of this developer, where could I get it? Or are you talking about the alternative process platinum? The latter would not apply to my work, for it requires contact printing, and I shoot 6x6.

    I don't currently have LPD, but might buy it to replace the Neutol WA when the latter runs out. I've heard of dillutions up to 1:8, so it might be an alternative.

    Les,

    The 15% bromide sounds like a good option. Do you know where I could purchase it from (online retailer)? How would I go about mixing that with a developer? If I get the LPD in powder form, would I do 15% of the weight before water, or do I mix the bromide in water and add to the already liquid developer?

    If I were to get LPD, could I add the bromide to a 1:6 or 1:8 solution? What would the drawback be (besides longer exposure to compensate for the weaker developer)?

    The exposure-development trick might come in handy, but with these particular prints I need all the contrast I can get (thin negs...).

    Thank you for your help, Les.

    Jdef,

    The reason I don't buy warmtone papers is the same for which I dropped AGFA... price. 50 11x14 sheets of polywarmtone run at about 60 bucks, the .EDU paper is about 30. It just doesn't compare, economically speaking.
    I know that judging my materials by the price tag isn't ideal, but I haven't much choice at this point.

    Thanks for the suggestion, though, and thanks for your kind words about my work.

    Thanks to everyone who is helping out, I trully appeciate it.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andre R. de Avillez
    I've looked at toners, and they are out of the question. Most require Potassium Ferracyanide, a chemical that will never enter my darkroom, and none make sense in an economical point of view.
    ,
    See the other thread on bleaching re: the so-called dangers of potassium ferricyanide. There seems to be quite a bit of needless worry about this chemical. Unless you dump a bunch of it in concentrated nitric or hydrochloric acid, you are in no danger from this chemical. You probably are exposing yourself to more dangerous stuff in the metol and hydroquinone in most developers.

    If you want a really easy to control warm tone result, I recommend a homebrew thiocarbamide sepia toner on cold tone paper. There is a great discussion of how do this on Wynn White's website. It is cheap to mix yourself and gives very nice warm purple brown results on most cold tone papers if you use the higher concentrations of NaOH

    Good luck!

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    Quote Originally Posted by clay
    See the other thread on bleaching re: the so-called dangers of potassium ferricyanide. There seems to be quite a bit of needless worry about this chemical. Unless you dump a bunch of it in concentrated nitric or hydrochloric acid, you are in no danger from this chemical. You probably are exposing yourself to more dangerous stuff in the metol and hydroquinone in most developers.
    Clay, thanks for the suggestions, but I would really rather not touch potassium ferracyanide. You see, I'm a clumsy guy. I lost count of how many scars I have in my body (I've had surgery on both my knees to remove scar tissue, in fact), and am still alive today by what is most likely a mix of blind luck and an on-going bet between the gods...

    Potassium ferracyanide is a strong corrosive, and that really worries me. The stuff eats through metal, for crying out loud. An ex-professor of mine used to work for the Dallas Morning News, and said they had a bucket of that stuff in their gang darkroom back in the 80's. Everyweek they would need a new brush, because the metal thing that holds the bristles would be eaten all the way through...

    As for the developer, I wear my gloves and hope for the best, but one risk cannot justify the other, if you know what I mean.

    Could you give the URL for the web page you mentioned? My google search didn't help much (but being a sepia toner, I bet it still requires bleaching).

    Les, a quick look at B&H turned up Ammonium Bromide, Potassium Bromide, and Sodium Bromide. Which one are you talking about?

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=*&shs=bromide

  8. #8
    clay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andre R. de Avillez
    Clay, thanks for the suggestions, but I would really rather not touch potassium ferracyanide. You see, I'm a clumsy guy. I lost count of how many scars I have in my body (I've had surgery on both my knees to remove scar tissue, in fact), and am still alive today by what is most likely a mix of blind luck and an on-going bet between the gods...

    Potassium ferracyanide is a strong corrosive, and that really worries me. The stuff eats through metal, for crying out loud. An ex-professor of mine used to work for the Dallas Morning News, and said they had a bucket of that stuff in their gang darkroom back in the 80's. Everyweek they would need a new brush, because the metal thing that holds the bristles would be eaten all the way through...

    As for the developer, I wear my gloves and hope for the best, but one risk cannot justify the other, if you know what I mean.

    Could you give the URL for the web page you mentioned? My google search didn't help much (but being a sepia toner, I bet it still requires bleaching).

    Les, a quick look at B&H turned up Ammonium Bromide, Potassium Bromide, and Sodium Bromide. Which one are you talking about?

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=*&shs=bromide

    Well, you know what you are comfortable messing with better than anyone, but if you are interested in reading a good general explanation of some various toning options, check out this link:www.wynnwhitephoto.com/toning.html . He discusses the pros and cons of the different basic toners. I have had some nice warm results using just a developer using Ansco 130 or the catechol print developer recipe from the Darkroom Cookbook. Of course all of those have stuff in them too, either glycin or catechol, that is not exactly good for you either. Seems you just can't escape from the chemistry in this hobby! But good luck to you whatever you decide to use.

    Also, FWIW, the bleach that you mix up with the ferricyanide is a pretty weak solution. It is hard to imagine it eating up your sink or anything, unless you just left it there for a very long time.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andre R. de Avillez
    Les, a quick look at B&H turned up Ammonium Bromide, Potassium Bromide, and Sodium Bromide. Which one are you talking about?

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=*&shs=bromide
    Andre, I'm not Les, but Potassium Bromide will do the job - with a Hydroquine based developer like the Agfa WA or a Metol/Hydroquinone developer like Dektol.

    However, the paper itself is often a very strong factor - it may not produce a good warm tone. The Arista EDU paper is made by Forte in Hungary and is supposed to be similar (or identical) to Forte Poly. You might ask Freestyle (the largest retailer of Arista EDU) what they recommend.

    http://www.freestylephoto.biz/

    The B&H bromide is from Photographers Formulary:
    http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/formulary_tech.html

    Another excellent supplier is Artcraft: http://www.artcraftchemicals.com/
    Tom Hoskinson
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    Everything is analog - even digital :D

  10. #10

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    Also Andre, I hate to tell you this, but Potassium, Sodium and Ammonium Bromide are all corrosive chemicals - like sodium chloride (table salt) and potassium ferricyanide. All of these chemicals are potentially hazardous and must be handled with proper safety precautions. Handled properly, they are not a health or safety problem.

    The amount of bromide that you need to use is very small, so it is not a hazard once it is in a dilute solution.
    Tom Hoskinson
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    Everything is analog - even digital :D

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