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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge
    Well, Kirk and Sandy have been going round and round just to agree on what kind of densitometer and what values should be used when testing staining developers with a step tablet. These are two knowledgeable people and they cant seem to reach an agreement. Methinks designing a good experiment and publish it will always leave someone unhappy. Is the debate really worth it?
    Jorge, IMHO, YES! That is the way science is supposed to work. Honest, sincere debate and critical review of the experimental results are fundamental parts of the process. I am only unhappy when the results are a useless dead-end.
    Tom Hoskinson
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  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hoskinson
    Jorge, IMHO, YES! That is the way science is supposed to work. Honest, sincere debate and critical review of the experimental results are fundamental parts of the process. I am only unhappy when the results are a useless dead-end.
    I agree Tom, but in science we at least have a set amount of procedures where we all agree give the correct data, here not even that is agreed.

    I for one fail to see why someone will try a compare staining negatives and use VC paper. I said it before and say it again, the paper should be a fixed parameter so that the color of the stain does not play any role other than density properties. Once again we see Bond using VC paper. What comes next? Another article named "Pyro and graded paper" to make up for the mistake done here?

    You know what, I would be more interested on article that defines the parameters and the appropriate measurement procedures, at least this way we can all start from square one in agreement. Seems to me everybody does the testing their own way, and as such, nothing is ever clarified. Look at the last 3 months, VC and CA had their test, PT had 2 tests, and yet....no definite findings one way or another....it is really becoming tiresome, at the same time this thread is going, there is another about the same thing in the LF forum with a complete opposite opinion than yours. Who are we to beleive?

    Really, Pyro is becoming another putrfact dead horse we keep beating on, and on, and on......

  3. #13

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    Funny, this came up..I have a sub (for now) to PT and saw the article. There were other articles in the issue that interested me more and I decided to save myself the bother to read the complete article after glancing over Mr. Bonds conclusions...It is his opinion, he is entitled to it. Not that I agree, but since I have no experience with any of the Pyro developers, it will not change my mind. I still plan to try Pyrocat-HD and really don't care what Mr. Bond thinks.

    It seems the more I learn about these things the more I find it is best to try something that interest me and leave the nuts and bolts to those that enjoy these things - or at least enjoy the debate. I find that my work looks more like I want it to using Rodinal, semi-stand development. Does it work for everyone, Heck No! I have seen some work here posted by folks using HC110 that I think is really Great.

    Now, I would like to try some of the masking techniques that have been described, but as of now have not done so...I mean there are some really good works in the galleries done by Jorge, Francesco and others that don't seem to need masking or stand or semi-stand development...so I guess Mr. Bond found something that works for him and since he is in the business of writing articles thought he would find a way to demonstrate WHY his method is best. Someone will agree with him and follow his path, most here do not.

    Nothing to get worked up over for sure, bad press for PT? Probably, let the vendor that advertise in the mag know, that will get more attention than anything. Me, I have no interest in the article and will not bother to read it.

    IMO
    Mike C

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  4. #14
    c6h6o3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge
    Really, Pyro is becoming another putrfact dead horse we keep beating on, and on, and on......
    "It is wise in any case not to make too much of the issue of developer choice, since the effects of variations are perhaps not as vital as many suppose them to be." -----Ansel Adams, The Negative

    Let's talk more about the pictures, and less about how we make them.

  5. #15

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    I am going to take a different position on this because in spite of the misinformation about the toxicity of pyro, and his conclusion, with which I don’t agree, Mr. Bond's latest article in Photo Techniques is actually quite good. I think he did ask some of the right questions and his methodology is sound. Just for the record, he compared in the article both VC and graded silver papers with several different developers and films, and his sensitometric data amply supports many of his findings, including the following.

    1. In printing with VC papers PMK negatives give highlight compression, which according to Bond results in darker, flatter highlights.

    2. Graded papers print the same with both PMK and conventional developers.

    3. TRI-X is one of the best films for use with PMK when printing with VC papers because its rising curve compensates for the highlight compression.

    Bond is not saying anything that some folks on this list who understand pyro developers don’t already know but so far as I know he is the first person to back up all of these findings with sensitometry.

    Sandy

  6. #16
    Alex Hawley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c6h6o3
    "It is wise in any case not to make too much of the issue of developer choice, since the effects of variations are perhaps not as vital as many suppose them to be." -----Ansel Adams, The Negative
    Yes, and Ansel himself has several examples in "The Negative" where he used pyro for one reason or another. He even gives the formulas for ABC and a PMK predecessor in the book.

    Bond's statement about great pictures being taken without pyro is the one absolute truth in the article. I find all this pursuing of the magic bullet very boring. Its sort of like marketing fishing lures; every one of them is guarenteed to catch fish. But it doesn't gaurentee the user will know how to use it.
    Semper Fi & God Bless America
    My Photography Blog

  7. #17
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    [QUOTE=Alex Hawley]Yes, and Ansel himself has several examples in "The Negative" where he used pyro for one reason or another. He even gives the formulas for ABC and a PMK predecessor in the book.

    Bond's statement about great pictures being taken without pyro is the one absolute truth in the article. I find all this pursuing of the magic bullet very boring. Its sort of like marketing fishing lures; every one of them is guarenteed to catch fish. But it doesn't gaurentee the user will know how to use it.[/QUOTE\]

    Nahh… let the weenies fight it out. I find the arguments revealing and sometimes refreshing and informative. There is just no telling what will come of artists discussing their art. I once broke up a fistfight between two Regimental Band members who disagreed as to the proper method of carving an oboe reed.
    I love the smell of fixer in the morning. It smells like...creativity!
    Truly, dr bob.

  8. #18
    Alex Hawley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr bob
    I once broke up a fistfight between two Regimental Band members who disagreed as to the proper method of carving an oboe reed.
    USNA?? Heck of a thing to fight about.
    Semper Fi & God Bless America
    My Photography Blog

  9. #19
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    Obviously, Alex, you have never played a double-reed instrument. I, as a former bassoon player, understand completely the absolute necessity of such a fistfight. I only hope neither of the combatants was hit in the lip. Ha.
    juan

  10. #20
    David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    Woodwind players can be viciously competitive. When I went to music camp as a kid, I recall cases of bent keys and sabotaged reeds on challenge day, when you got the opportunity to move to a higher chair in the orchestra and get a shot at a solo. Fortunately, I play the trombone, so there aren't so many flashy solos to compete for, and it's more important to be able to make a good blend with the section.

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