Wishful thinking in the hope of keeping film I guess.
Originally Posted by clogz
The fact that T-Max and Ilford and Agfa will be gone is precisely why it matters very much. To me, 400TMax is the best black and white film ever made. I wouldn't trade it for Super XX Pan.
Originally Posted by jandc01
Are you telling me that Foma 200 is a viable alternative? That it has properties similar to TMax? If so, then I probably should try it. But in the meantime, I'm embarking on a major TMax stockpiling campaign. If Ilford's biting the big one, Kodak can't be far behind.
Originally Posted by c6h6o3
No, I'm not saying that it is anything like Tmax. I am saying that the technology exists in these small factories to make modern films. So anything is possible in a world without Kodak, Ilford etc. We are not looking at the end of film here just a shift in the supply chain to companies that don't need to have multi millions of dollars in sales to justify a product.
A mass hoarding is just going to bring the end so much quicker as sales go into the toilet after everyone has more film than they know what to do with.
So in the end it doesn't matter, the films will be gone, new films will be introduced and people will use them and not really care that Tmax or any other film is no longer made. Just like people are getting along just fine without Super XX, Verichrome etc.
that is a really good point.
Originally Posted by jandc
2 years ago i bought a ton of tmax ( 4x5 100 sheet ) for a huge job that fell through at the last min ... 9-11 happened and the client vanished ( oh well, at least i have a ton of film, right?). okay , then i also bumped into a friend and bought 20 boxes of tri x because i got them for almost nothing (5x7 - 20 boxes /100 sheets @ 1$ / box) ...
anyways - i have been trying to burn through the film for a 2 years with no light at the end of the tunnel. i know i can't buy more film without shelf space, and i can't see selling it on FEEbay and losing my shirt, so i just shoot sheets of film that i have, and wait.
i wish i didn't have all this film! and i am shooting as much as i can so i could buy some j &c classic, ekfe or foma films, but it ain't gonna happen anytime soon . hopefully THEY will still be around by the time i am ready to buy something to shoot, cause i sure am not going to buy any ilford or kodak films ... they'll only be found "expired and on ebay " ...
Last edited by jnanian; 08-26-2004 at 08:11 AM. Click to view previous post history.
I couldnt agree with you more. I actually lost sleep. I actually started no longer buying kodak when I heard they were considering no longer making film and I moved to ilford! Now I am just bent. I am goign to have to search for a replacement. I am looking into JandC, Efke and whatever else it out there.
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Raising prices beyond what the market will bear would sound the death nell for the industry. You and I and many others here might pay a steep premium for our favourite films, but alas we are not the market.
Originally Posted by TPPhotog
The big players have done their research and know who their customers are and how much they'll pay. To a lesser degree they even know what the customer wants. Unfortunately, what is often wanted is a bright package, nifty name and or the image of more -- not the reality of more.
Ferrari's deliver the reality, where as most people (the market) will settle for go fast stripes, nice rims and a price of 1/10th of the reality. The companies that sell the image cars sell and make a lot more money than those who sell reality.
I suspect for a long time there will be small companies making good product at a price we will pay. I don't expect there to be major breakthroughs or many new advancements in film nor do I expect kodak or Fuji to raise their prices to justify lower demand or to capitalize on their exclusivity. I expect Kodak and fuji to continue to narrow their product line and squeeze out greater cost efficiencies so that they can continue to sell product in quantity at the appropriate price. In other words I expect film will get more expensive from the smaller players (without much advancement in technology), and from the bigger players a lowering of variety and quality and static pricing.
It won't go well for the smaller players.
This is just my overly pessimistic attitude.
" I am saying that the technology exists in these small factories to make modern films."
I have been trying (not very well) to find some information of this type on another thread. I was not sure if the capabilities were the same.
I wonder if these guys could be able to produce something like Azo, for instance if the demand was there and Kodak gets out alltogether.
These factories were producing AZO like papers 50 years ago. Fotokemika (Efke) produces Techpan like films, infrared films, ortho films, dye transfer matrix film, in addition to their regular line up of films. Foma knows how to make a T-grain film as their Foma 200 shows, in addition to the currently discontinued T-800. Forte has improved their 200 and 400 films in the last year with significant updates to the formulations. Both Foma and Forte make some wonderful papers. Some of these films and papers are rebranded into popular brands. These factories are producing more film and paper that you might think. It's just that you see much of it rebranded under these popular names.
Originally Posted by mobtown_4x5
Speaking from experience, this is very true.
Originally Posted by jandc
Of course, if it's me, speaking from my experience.
My experience is limitied.
You've been warned.
A long, long time ago (about 1 yr?) JandC had surplus Macophot UP100 up for sale, at unbeatable prices. I bought some.
Ok, I bought 100 rollls. I then shot 10 of them, and finished my (then) current project. A few months (6-7) later, I traveled to Brazil and shot a few more.
Ok, 65 more.
Since then I shot 5 more rolls. Maybe it was 6.
The point is: I still have 19 rolls to play with, and the way my life is going right now, they will last a while. And although I really want to try Classic 200 and 400, I can't justify buying them (the fact that I'm not shooting doesn't help).
So, JandC, you'll have my business again. I just need to shoot more.
But I'm printing!!! And I hear your paper is good. And I'll buy it. Soon.
But my darkroom is down. It has become a storage facility.
Another room is being worked on. Ceramic tiles are being laid out. A sink will be installed.
Will Silver Emulsion still exist by the time it's finished? Can our Super Hero shoot down the terrible super villain?
Will this mad man ever stop typing?
Forte's new 400-speed film shows some real progress (or maybe regress for the better), Efke 100 is an outstanding traditional film, and I'm glad to see that Efke is keeping some slower emulsions in production but Forte and Efke still have a few things to work on before they can really replace the films made by the major manufacturers--
--Adding a protective layer to make the films more scratch resistant.
--Getting the width of 120 film backing right so that it doesn't leak. Foma seems to get this right. And any chance of seeing 220 films?
--Precise cutting of sheet film with a smooth edge. We all know about the one disaster, where it was far enough out of tolerance that it had to be replaced, but even when it's close enough to work, it's not as consistent as Kodak. My last batch of Efke 100 4x5" fit my holders, fortunately, but I needed to readjust my Nikor sheet film reel to make it fit.
--Emulsion notches and edge printing that identify the film might not be a bad idea.
One thing to be said for the East European manufacturers, though, is that they are listening and improving their products in response to these kinds of discussions. Enough people complained about density problems with the old ClassicPan 400 that they reformulated it and produced a real winner with the new Classic 400. J&C is participating in this discussion, but I don't see anyone from Ilford, Agfa, or Kodak here (though to be fair, David Carper from Ilford does seem active on internet forums, if not this one).
And Maco Expo RF graded is perfect. This one should stay just like it is.