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  1. #21
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller
    Typically other then the dmax and dmin that a given paper (VC or graded) will deliver the only other variable factor is the exposure scale, as expressed in the curve at a given grade, of the paper. .
    NO you've missed out another extremely important variable the type of development.

    Essentilally a Warm tone developer is a finer grain paper developer, by over exposing and underdeveloping you can get still finer grain - and so even warner toned images.

    Les McLean's earlier post tells yopu how.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant
    NO you've missed out another extremely important variable the type of development.

    Essentilally a Warm tone developer is a finer grain paper developer, by over exposing and underdeveloping you can get still finer grain - and so even warner toned images.

    Les McLean's earlier post tells yopu how.
    Ian,
    If you will take the time to reread what I stated, I addressed the characteristics of graded to variable contrast paper. That is what I meant to address since that was the basis of this thread.

  3. #23
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller
    Ian,
    If you will take the time to reread what I stated, I addressed the characteristics of graded to variable contrast paper. That is what I meant to address since that was the basis of this thread.
    Correct, no dispute there. But you were also comparing different manufacturers as well as you obviously had not used Forte papers before. I was merely pointing out that I found exactly similar experiences, using Forte's variable grade papers compared to Agfa papers.

    You still seem to be missing Les McLean's point about developers and development / exposure being an extremely important factor.

    Maybe it's a more European thing about image quality we exert a different type of control

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant
    Correct, no dispute there. But you were also comparing different manufacturers as well as you obviously had not used Forte papers before. I was merely pointing out that I found exactly similar experiences, using Forte's variable grade papers compared to Agfa papers.

    Nope, I didn't mention any specific manufacturers at all in my post. I have used Forte as well as a number of other papers. I did not dispute your post.

    You still seem to be missing Les McLean's point about developers and development / exposure being an extremely important factor.

    Nope, not missing Les's point at all. The developers and development/exposure variable applies to all materials and is not involved in a direct comparison of variable contrast to graded materials.

    Maybe it's a more European thing about image quality we exert a different type of control

    I can't comment on that because I have no knowledge of how Europeans view things...but I find that photographic materials are consistantly and generally the same whether they are manufactured and used in Europe, United States, SE Asia, Mexico, or South America. For that reason the same direct comparison of graded to variable contrast materials would seemingly apply.
    My original thesis was that it would take direct sensitometric evaluation of the differing paper types; that, from that analysis, the negative must be optimized to the proper correlation between negative and printing paper to arrive at a factual comparison. Anything less is purely and simply conjecture. I remain steadfast in that position.

  5. #25
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Miller
    My original thesis was that it would take direct sensitometric evaluation of the differing paper types; that, from that analysis, the negative must be optimized to the proper correlation between negative and printing paper to arrive at a factual comparison. Anything less is purely and simply conjecture. I remain steadfast in that position.
    Thats very interesting as thats the very first time any of that's been mentioned in this post.

    Zone system tests get you to the same end point just as fast, at the end of the day it's the images that matter not the measuring of everything with a densitometer.

    However each to their own

    Ian

  6. #26

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    Thanks all for the selenium tips. Good strong light right over the tray and a well worn, well diluted mix sound just about right -- and easy. I appreciate the help!

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