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  1. #41
    Marco B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c6h6o3 View Post
    GAF 125 appears to be Dektol (Kodak D-72) in all respects except for one: it contains less carbonate (65 grams as opposed to 80). This is quite interesting to me as I've always thought of Dektol as one the coldest of developers. Certainly too cold for Steve's work. I guess the reduced activity from backing off on the accelerator must also affect print color.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Sherman View Post
    I must say I am surprised to say the least how such small differences can haver such a different look.
    Looking at the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) of Ilfords Cold Tone, Multigrade, and Ilford Warmtone Developer, the first two are exactly identical, and only the Warmtone Developer shows a difference.

    If we ignore the presence of different variations of EDTA (DTPA in the Coldtone and Multigrade, HEDTA in the Warmtone variant), which probably only serves to capture metal ions in tap water, than the one and only major difference between the Coldtone / Multigrade developers on one side, and the Warmtone Developer on the other side, is a reduction in the amount of Potassium Carbonate (from 5-10% in Coldtone to 1-5% in Warmtone developer), and addition of Potassium Hydroxide 1-5% in the Warmtone developer.

    Since Potassium Hydroxide is strongly alkaline, it seems the major difference between the Coldtone and Warmtone developers is pH, with the warmtone developer being more alkaline.

    So simple pH regulation seems the major driving force between getting cool or warm tones in print developer... and since the MSDS sheets of Multigrade and Cooltone developer are identical, yet the products marketed seperately, they must have minor differences in composition that are enough to force tones in the cooler or more neutral direction.
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  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco B View Post
    .........Since Potassium Hydroxide is strongly alkaline, it seems the major difference between the Coldtone and Warmtone developers is pH, with the warmtone developer being more alkaline.

    So simple pH regulation seems the major driving force between getting cool or warm tones in print developer... and since the MSDS sheets of Multigrade and Cooltone developer are identical, yet the products marketed seperately, they must have minor differences in composition that are enough to force tones in the cooler or more neutral direction.
    Makes sense, but I've often read that cold tone developers are more alkaline (= more active). Very strange. Maybe there are components that don't have to be listed.

  3. #43

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    Something might be of interest. The Australian MSDS docs often have more detail than others. If you look at the Ilford site, you'll see separate entry for English/Australian. It's not because our language is so different (though some might disagree) but the regulations are different.

  4. #44

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    This past Saturday I printed the same negative on Ilford MGWT (glossy) and Ilford MGIV and also on some Brilliant multigrade ( happened to have sitting around for who knows how many years ). All three are double weight fiber. All three were developed in the very last of my Zone VI which is somewhat similar to Dektol. I tried to get as close as possible the same tonal ranges. The WT took almost twice the exposure time as the MGIV and the Brilliant slightly more time than the MGIV. All were at the same f stop and enlarger height. The Brilliant had a whiter paper base as comparing the unexposed borders and seemed to have blacker blacks and was more contrasty. If my memory serves me correct, I always thought that Brilliant was made by Ilford for Calumet?

    I'm just putting this out as an observation. I have been printing on MGIV since Brilliant was discontinued especially in the larger sizes and have no complaints. I will add that I like the WT and expect to use it more often.

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  5. #45
    brian steinberger's Avatar
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    Thanks for that observation Jeff. I never heard of Calumet Brilliant. Interesting how many papers come and go. one of the reasons I decided to come back to MGIV from Oriental is that MGIV and MGWT are papers that should be around as long as Ilford is, which hopefully is a very long time.

  6. #46
    Steve Sherman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffreyg View Post
    If my memory serves me correct, I always thought that Brilliant was made by Ilford for Calumet?

    http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/
    My recollection tells me that Zone VI studios had the paper manufactured by an unknown paper coating company in France when the original Oriental Seagull had an emulsion change back in the nineties.

    Also, had a good friend who purchased a bunch of Brilliant from ZOne VI studios just before the Calumet buyout. He believed he was getting a super deal as the price was about 1/2 normal retail. Turned out the paper was bad, severely lacked contrast and he never did get any satisfaction from Zone VI and lost hundreds in the deal.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Sherman View Post
    My recollection tells me that Zone VI studios had the paper manufactured by an unknown paper coating company in France when the original Oriental Seagull had an emulsion change back in the nineties.

    Also, had a good friend who purchased a bunch of Brilliant from ZOne VI studios just before the Calumet buyout. He believed he was getting a super deal as the price was about 1/2 normal retail. Turned out the paper was bad, severely lacked contrast and he never did get any satisfaction from Zone VI and lost hundreds in the deal.
    Indeed Brilliant was Fred Picker's doing as he reported back in the day trying to get the French paper company to make the best possible bromide paper. Late in zone 6 history Calumet became a marketer of all the zone 6 stuff. Probably made Fred a lot of money.

  8. #48

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    The box of Brilliant that I have says made in England. It was definitely purchased from Calumet. Perhaps they just purchased the name. While Zone 6 was still in business we happened to be in Vermont and when passing through Newfane I stopped and asked where Zone 6 was. The response was that a number of people had done the same and there was no Zone 6 establishment. That was just used as a mail drop. I guess it lent a "local craftsman" feel to their products. My Zone 6 print washer has held up very well and has been doing the job for quite a few years.

  9. #49
    Marco B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john_s View Post
    Makes sense, but I've often read that cold tone developers are more alkaline (= more active). Very strange. Maybe there are components that don't have to be listed.
    Quote Originally Posted by john_s View Post
    Something might be of interest. The Australian MSDS docs often have more detail than others. If you look at the Ilford site, you'll see separate entry for English/Australian. It's not because our language is so different (though some might disagree) but the regulations are different.
    That indeed seems to be the case. The Australian MSDS for the Ilford / Harman Warmtone developer additionally mentions a significant amount of 5-10% borax, and a small (<1%) amount of a substance called "1-Phenyl-4-methyl-3-pyrazolidone", which according to this page is a developing agent too. According to Wikipedia, one of borax's uses is to buffer solutions at a certain pH (usually pH 8, just mildly alkaline, but I see also a mention of pH 9.2-11 for a buffer with borax and sodium hydroxide, so that may be possible too). Anyway, the Warmtone developer may not be more alkaline after all, but buffered at a slightly lower pH, more close to neutral pH, compared to the Cooltone and normal Multigrade developer. That would be in accordance with John's remark.

    Of course, with pH being a 10log of H+ ions concentration, even a 1 step difference in pH, means 10x more or less alkaline hydroxide (OH-) ions in solution to participate in the development process, so even an apparently "small" change of pH from 10 to 9, could have a significant effect on developer activity.

    By the way, the MSDSs of course also mention Hydroquinone as the actual developing / reducing agent in all the variants, I just didn't list it in the previous post, as it seemed logical enough and there aren't differences in the sheets (all mention 1-5%)
    Last edited by Marco B; 03-02-2011 at 02:57 PM. Click to view previous post history.
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  10. #50
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    I love the Warmtone, but I cannot justify the very high price. It has gone up about $30 a box since I fist used it. The regular Multigrade does not do much for me. Not sure what it is about it. I like Oriental and the newer MCC 110 better, and they are cheaper here in the U.S.A. Oriental makes a Warmtone paper as well, but it is not as subtle as the Ilford. Developer additives with MCC are an option.
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