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  1. #71

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    Thank you, Ralph! What would be your answer to my other question? Thanks in advance!
    Philippe Grunchec

    "The fundamental problem any artist faces in regard to craft is that it must be largely ignored" Richard Benson.

    http://philippe.grunchec-photographe.over-blog.com/

  2. #72
    RalphLambrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philippe Grunchec View Post
    Is it possible to use a thiocarbamide toner as a direct toner? ...
    I see no reason why not, but wouldn't expect much tonal change.
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  3. #73
    Marco B's Avatar
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    Ralph:

    I have had fully sepia toned (full bleach + redevelop), and almost full selenium toned prints (harder to judge, as there is no bleach step as I used it) subsequently ran through a selenium toner or sepia toner respectively. Toning times for the second toner were deliberately exaggerated long to ensure any remaining silver would be converted and any effect on existing
    toned parts of the images could be judged.

    I can assure you:

    - a fully sepia toned image (silver sulphide) IS NOT converted to silver selenide by selenium toner, the images remain as they are.
    - a fully selenium toned image IS NOT converted to silver sulphide by a sepia toner, the images are again unaffected by the second toner.

    I actually ran a whole bunch of tests using different papers (Ilford, Kentmere) and different amounts of double toning of sepia and selenium, going from fully sepia toned, as judged by a full bleach, to almost full selenium toned (judged by eye) with about 6 steps in between, and the results were consistent.

    As you also more or less say: it is the remaining untoned silver and possible remaining bleach products like silver halide or silver ferricyanide that is converted in a subsequent toning bath.

    Anyway, this is not a statement about the effects of any other types of toners (gold), I haven't tried it so can't comment, or that silver sulphide and silver selenide are wholly immutable. Like Ian Grant suggests, there might well be some chemical substances capable of attacking both, but another consideration in that respect is if the paper base or gelatine would survive such conditions...

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippe Grunchec View Post
    Is it possible to use a thiocarbamide toner as a direct toner?
    Quote Originally Posted by RalphLambrecht View Post
    I see no reason why not, but wouldn't expect much tonal change.
    I have attempted this just once in experiments. Any toning effect of a working strength thiocarbamide / thiourea (same substance, different names), is painfully slow to the point of non-existent without a pre-bleach. With "working strenght", I mean the concentrations as designated by the manufacturers of two bath bleach / redeveloper sepia toners for making the redeveloper solution.

    I don't know if a higher concentration solution would possibly make a viable direct toner...
    Last edited by Marco B; 04-20-2011 at 05:09 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    My website

    "The nineteenth century began by believing that what was reasonable was true, and it wound up by believing that what it saw a photograph of, was true." - William M. Ivins Jr.

    "I don't know, maybe we should disinvent color, and we could just shoot Black & White." - David Burnett in 1978

    "Analog is chemistry + physics, digital is physics + math, which ones did you like most?"

  4. #74
    RalphLambrecht's Avatar
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    Marco

    Thanks for sharing. Your conclusions make sense to me.
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  5. #75
    Marco B's Avatar
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    By the way, my test also highlighted what others here on APUG having been saying too.

    BIG WARNING for anyone doing double toning involving selenium toner as the first toning bath and a subsequent bleach of a second toner to be applied afterwards:

    - Ensure you properly wash the print after the selenium toner, preferably using HCA or Washing Aid, to wash out any remaining hypo from the selenium toner.

    Hypo (fixer) forms part of the chemical cocktail of most selenium toners. If you don't wash it out properly prior to the second sepia toner bleach bath, the fixer will bleach out some of the silver halides formed in the bleaching process, leading to especially highlight detail loss.

    I could clearly see this effect in my tests. If I quickly rinsed the selenium toned prints, there was highlight loss due to fixing out of formed silver halides, if I properly washed them prior to bleaching, it was OK.
    My website

    "The nineteenth century began by believing that what was reasonable was true, and it wound up by believing that what it saw a photograph of, was true." - William M. Ivins Jr.

    "I don't know, maybe we should disinvent color, and we could just shoot Black & White." - David Burnett in 1978

    "Analog is chemistry + physics, digital is physics + math, which ones did you like most?"

  6. #76
    RalphLambrecht's Avatar
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    Does someone know how Michael Kenna gets his so subtle tones? I met him very recently... but did not dare to ask!
    Quote Originally Posted by RalphLambrecht View Post
    I just send him an email to ask him.
    I did an answer from Michael, but it was not clear to whether he uses direct or indirect toning. I did ask for further clarification and get back to you.
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  7. #77

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    Is he back from Moscow?
    Philippe Grunchec

    "The fundamental problem any artist faces in regard to craft is that it must be largely ignored" Richard Benson.

    http://philippe.grunchec-photographe.over-blog.com/

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