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  1. #91
    Guillaume Zuili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R 1974 View Post
    There are two kinds of stain, general stain is like fog, imagewise stain is proportional to silver density. Imagewise stain is the desirable one.
    For sure. But even a very thin pyro negative (almost transparent) has much more meat and contrast than expected. Way more. So there is really something magical with that stain, whichever it is.

  2. #92
    Sirius Glass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    Yes I jump a grade as well.
    For split printing Non Stain normal scene I will start at about grade 1
    For split printing Pyro somewhat normal scene I will start at about grade 2.
    Ralph L had some points about 00 and Ilford Warmtone not recording well.
    With Pyro negs I can confirm that 0 or 00 is not great with Ilford WT .
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R 1974 View Post
    Thomas your jump from graded #2 to VC #3 seems logical to me, at least directionally.
    So when I said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius Glass View Post
    Hence,
    1. The pyro staining is non-uniform and therefore useful.
    2. The result of the staining is that the contrast of the negative is effectively higher, although not visually higher to the eye, and therefore one can start with a lower grade filter and have a greater range of increased contrast available if needed.
    I should have said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius Glass View Post
    Hence,
    1. The pyro staining is non-uniform and therefore useful.
    2. The result of the staining is that the contrast of the negative is effectively lower, although not visually higher to the eye, and therefore one should start with a higher grade filter.
    Right?

    Steve
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

  3. #93

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    The density, and density range (ie contrast) of the stained negative is higher than it looks upon visual inspection since your eye is only evaluating the silver density. This says nothing about what filter to use. It depends how you develop the negative. It's hard to compare it to a non-stained negative and bridge it with a filter change because, again, the stain is a variable quasi-compensating filter.

    Contrast with a Pyro negative will typically be higher on graded paper than VC paper

  4. #94
    Guillaume Zuili's Avatar
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    This is why I use mostly graded papers, to get contrast. And when it's VC it's in lith so filter doesn't mean much for me.

    Need to sleep before taking a plane.
    :-)

  5. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius Glass View Post
    I keep hearing conflicting answers on staining. One camp with Per, staining is proportional to exposure, use it.
    The other camp with Sandy King [correct me if I am wrong], staining is uniform like a fog, do not use it.
    The term "staining" being used so loosely is causing the confusion. Staining happens during development, and it is proportional to density. Staining can also happen in a post-fixer bath, in which case it is not proportional to density IME. So I would say that based on my own negatives, Per is right, if you clarify that he was talking about the staining that happens during development, and Sandy is right, if you clarify that he is talking about the post-fixer staining bath. I only use the post-fixer staining bath if I want to add fog (which can actually be quite useful sometimes). Otherwise, I do not.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

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  6. #96
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    You can all worry to much about the type of stain, effect of stain etc. But those of us using these developers see advantages for our work with practical experience sometimes there's too many theoretical explanations usually by inexperienced usewrs.

    Ian

  7. #97
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    But Ian, don't you agree that there can be some important differences for those that want the last bit of print quality in high contrast lighting?

    When I used Pyrocat I shot in early morning sun mostly, with some wicked brightness ranges, from deep shadow to directly sunlit partially white walls. I could have worked with Xtol to get the general contrast correct, but to get the highlights to pop, I needed that extra detail, and it worked very well in my opinion.

    Attached example is Tri-X 400 film, Pyrocat-MC at 1+1+100 / 70*F / 13m - agitate full first minute and then two inversions every 3 minutes. Printed on Kentmere Bromide Grade 2 paper. Pretty much a straight print with little manipulation. I have used this negative to print on Ilford MGIV as well, and if I remember correctly I had filtration set at Grade 3 or 3.5. Haven't tried split grade printing it yet.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails BH05 - Lamp Divide.jpg  
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

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  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    You can all worry to much about the type of stain, effect of stain etc. But those of us using these developers see advantages for our work with practical experience sometimes there's too many theoretical explanations usually by inexperienced usewrs.

    Ian
    I'm talking about characteristics, that's all, not things to be worried about, not good or bad or yes you should use this and don't use that etc.

  9. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    If you look at Richard Avedon's studio portraits of lets say the Duke and Dutches of Windsor or Marylin Monroe you will see lots of uneven backgrounds for one, but also the grain is very defined, I have always thought that his film for this time period was developed in Pyro and unstained- most likely triX.

    Super sharp, but extreme edge sharpness on these portraits on grey background.
    I am not talking about In the American West or his work on white backgrounds.

    Not sure if anyone else ever noticed this and I wonder how he made the negs.
    Bob, I swear I heard somewhere that early on (not sure as early as that Marilyn portrait) Avedon's studio used 777 (replenished of course) but then later switched the tanks to D-76. But I can't remember at all where I heard or read it...so just more internet hearsay unfortunately.

    But YES, Penn and Avedon pushed envelopes. Not many people appreciate any longer how groundbreaking their work was creatively and technically. Avedon's size. And Penn's platinum. I mean, any chance to see his platinum work is an inspiration in craft...and then to hear he did some of them from color film and the such is insane. No scanners and digi negs out at his Long Island darkroom.

    Prostrate.

  10. #100
    Steve Sherman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R 1974 View Post
    Stain is proportional to the amount of silver halide reduced, meaning in highlight areas a fair amount of density when printing is coming from the stain. So what I'm saying is that if you look at the negative, the highlight areas might look comparitively thin (ie overall contrast looks low) while in printing the combined optical/spectral density of the silver and stain might be normal. So all we're talking about here is the fact with a pyro negative the density is a combination of silver and stain.
    Above quote is right on and may well offer some insight to why many are seeing a need to bump contrast filtration with Pyro negs.

    My experience tells me that Pyro developed negs do not like heavy exposure, this tends to move much of what we saw as dark tones in the original scene to move up onto the straight line and be impacted by development and in the case of pyro, increased stain. This is also the exact reason I do not redevelop pyro negs in used developer, the stain compromises mid tone / edge contrast and that is the single most difficult component of printing to get correct.

    For me personally, my pre pyro negs were heavy and required a lot of manipulation in the darkroom with graded paper to get the effect I was looking for.

    I find quite the opposite with Pyro negs and Multi Contrast paper, a well exposed, almost @ manufacturer's box speed and developed to a lower contrast index to yield some of the finest prints I have seen.

    I use exclusively Pyrocat HD, the first stuff Sandy formulated and find it works well with continuous agitation or with reduced agitation regimes. I mix it from powder (the most toxic as dust can cause respiratory problems), once in liquid form it is quite safe and extremely inexpensive.

    Sandy King has spend untold hours and research on formulating Pyrocat, I cannot understand the debate about developers!

    Go make some photographs!

    Cheers
    Real Photographs are Born Wet !
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