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  1. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius Glass View Post
    I cannot get any fully scientifically tested [with proper controls] results stating that staining is either good or bad. Most threads that try to thrash that out get into flame wars and I stop reading them.
    Steve
    This is what I found when researching a question on another thread. When you try to research staining developers what you find is speculation and personal bias with little real information. For example, on this thread 5 people say to place the negative back in the used developer and 3 say don't do it. None of the 8 people offer any scientific basis for their opinion.
    A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.

    ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  2. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Sherman View Post
    ..........with Pyro negs and Multi Contrast paper, a well exposed, almost @ manufacturer's box speed and developed to a lower contrast index to yield some of the finest prints I have seen........


    Cheers
    I deliberately develop to a lowish contrast and find that VC papers behave better at medium to slightly higher contrast settings.

    Exposure has to be adequate, even a bit generous. Setting the ISO on the meter is only half the story: the way one points the meter and makes decisions is the other half.

    I should add that developing to a lower contrast makes the stain less extreme, and so avoids to some extent the drop in contrast in highlights that can be a problem when staining is very strong. I am sure that I'm still benefiting from the stain, though.

  3. #113
    Steve Sherman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald C Koch View Post
    None of the 8 people offer any scientific basis for their opinion.
    To the core of the above quote I am guilty, certainly by scientific standards my observations hold little credence. My tests have always been making photographs and making only slight one at a time changes to my methodology. I hate garage doors and grafts.

    However, I have on scores of occasions emptied large waste baskets of both negatives and prints based on small adjustments and educated trial and error.

    Technology is a wonderful thing 95% of the time but let us not forget the eye test as the final grade.

    2 cents!
    Real Photographs are Born Wet !
    http://www.steve-sherman.com

  4. #114
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    Not speaking for the other 7 here but you are right Gerald I cannot offer a scientific basis for my opinion.

    What I can offer is over 30,000 roll processed in pyro , contacted then prints made from over the last 15 years. Not to mention the Sheets of film.

    Some people make charts and plot curves, drink wine and pontify about printing
    Others make a living from it and work 7 days a week at photography.

    Which group do you fall into??

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald C Koch View Post
    This is what I found when researching a question on another thread. When you try to research staining developers what you find is speculation and personal bias with little real information. For example, on this thread 5 people say to place the negative back in the used developer and 3 say don't do it. None of the 8 people offer any scientific basis for their opinion.

  5. #115
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Next week I get to see Sherman's Semi Stand Prints in Louisville, I hope he dosen't let me down, he has been talking a big story on this thread. Apparently there is a case of Dumante ordered , I hope Gittings dosen't show up.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    Next week I get to see Sherman's Semi Stand Prints in Louisville, I hope he dosen't let me down, he has been talking a big story on this thread. Apparently there is a case of Dumante ordered , I hope Gittings dosen't show up.
    I would love to see Steve's prints in person. I hear from other photographers I respect that they are outstanding.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    Not speaking for the other 7 here but you are right Gerald I cannot offer a scientific basis for my opinion.

    What I can offer is over 30,000 roll processed in pyro , contacted then prints made from over the last 15 years. Not to mention the Sheets of film.

    Some people make charts and plot curves, drink wine and pontify about printing
    Others make a living from it and work 7 days a week at photography.

    Which group do you fall into??
    Ha, finally someone comes out saying what I've always believed in. Extensive, scientific knowledge/proof of how and why something works the way it does, does not make a great image or replace hard work/hands-on experience in making great images. In fact, I am a firm believer that, often in this field, the more you know (technically and scientifically), the less you got to show in the creativity department. That's because it is so easy to constantly get hung up on endless tests, doubts about one's processes, and trying to find scientific answers about everything, that all ingenuity and spontaneity to make a great picture is lost, behind the shutter and at printing stage. At the end of the day, for those who are inclined to always seeking scientific answers, talk is cheap (for as interesting as it may be in many cases), until you supply successful images that can back up all the wonderful theories and tech mumbo jumbo.
    So, would "real" scientific information really help us in producing a great print from a Pyro negative or the advice of people who may have no clue about it but have printed thousands of negatives from it and can actually give their "professional" opinion?
    I don't mean to sound harsh but I do speak my mind. This is of course a totally moot point if one is inclined to simply seek scientific knowledge/proof for the sake of it.

  8. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    Which group do you fall into??
    What I believe is important is the stain produced during development since it is created in proportion to the amount of silver produced. I think of this as image stain. Placing the negative back into the developer after all silver halide has been removed by fixing contributes nothing to the image stain. This procedure produces only an overall stain something like a built in ND filter. It's not going to create any mystical qualities in the negative.

    Years ago when there was a great deal of interest in the Zone System there were a handful of gurus for lack of a better term. Their every word was considered as holy writ. No one was allowed to question any of their pronoucements let alone supply any scientific criticism. Sadly, I think that the technique of stain development is at a similar point. It's a valid and useful method but people need to separate the facts from a great deal of fiction.
    Last edited by Gerald C Koch; 07-30-2011 at 09:45 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.

    ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  9. #119
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    I Yams what I Yams , as Popeye would say.

    Recently a 40 print show that hung in the Royal Ontario Museum which was viewed by hundreds of thousand viewers , got extended for one year due to the positive responses. All the negatives produced this show were done in my very unsophisticated method of dipping back into the developer.
    I think the prints are pretty good using this method.

    I think you are missing my point about the hardening effect of tannin developer, nowhere did I say the stain had any mystical properties and I must admit it took me years to understand the zone system, and my take on it is probably very different from the gurus here and back then.

    How you make the prints zing is most important. That just takes practice and a few thousand negatives to work with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald C Koch View Post
    What I believe is important is the stain produced during development since it is created in proportion to the amount of silver produced. I think of this as image stain. Placing the negative back into the developer after all silver halide has been removed by fixing contributes nothing to the image stain. This procedure produces only an overall stain something like a built in ND filter. It's not going to create any mystical qualities in the negative.

    Years ago when there was a great deal of interest in the Zone System there were a handful of gurus for lack of a better term. Their every word was considered as holy writ. No one was allowed to question any of their pronoucements let alone supply any scientific criticism. Sadly, I think that the technique of stain development is at a similar point. It's a valid and useful method but people need to separate the facts from a great deal of fiction.

  10. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    I Yams what I Yams , as Popeye would say.

    Recently a 40 print show that hung in the Royal Ontario Museum which was viewed by hundreds of thousand viewers , got extended for one year due to the positive responses. All the negatives produced this show were done in my very unsophisticated method of dipping back into the developer.
    I think the prints are pretty good using this method.

    I think you are missing my point about the hardening effect of tannin developer, nowhere did I say the stain had any mystical properties and I must admit it took me years to understand the zone system, and my take on it is probably very different from the gurus here and back then.

    How you make the prints zing is most important. That just takes practice and a few thousand negatives to work with.
    I'm sure that the prints at the show were very good. I personally don't believe that an overall stain added anything to their quality. I think they would be excellent either way. From my experience an overall stain would make the negatives harder to print.

    You didn't imply anthing mystical and I think you are far too intelligent to do so. But after reading dozens of articles on the web you willl find such comments.

    I think most people have problems understanding the Zone System, I know I did. Many of the books on the Zone System are not very good teaching aids. I have read others describe the difficulty. Some state that they have suddenly attained an epiphany when everything finally made sense.
    Last edited by Gerald C Koch; 07-30-2011 at 10:47 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.

    ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery



 

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